Value of 21 missing penny major varieties

[Basil]

[quote pid='120511' dateline='1570776996']
Interesting debate and a touch of the John Farnham Farewell Tour -"this will be my last comment on this thread" or similar.

I have a question... The swap a penny when visiting the mint story has been around for a long time; is there any evidence that this happened with other than 1930 pennies, different denominations or was any sort of known practice? I have never seen it mentioned in respect of anything other than 1930 pennies. If there is no evidence of such a practice otherwise surely that would be strong evidence it is not true?
[/quote]

Yeah,its an interesting subject and as already Posted there are very few facts,especially 90 years later.

The 1930 Coin swap was the main theory for a while when i was at School in the 1960's and lasted well into the 1970's then a light went off with Numismatists,where are they?This was revived when the 3rd party graders started to gain momentum in the 1990's,where are the Coins?,nearly every 1930 Penny ID'd  was circulated to some degree and found after WW11.
IIRC the 'swap' theory came from a ex-Mint Employee interviewed in the late 1950's or early 1960's,if it did happen,statistics tell us it was one off or a handful at best.There may still be a UNC 1930 in Toorak.LOL.

I'm sure the Mints have swapped out Coins pre WW11 before but i can't think of an eg at the moment,there was a Post on a Stamp Forum about 20 years when we were discussing the 1930 Penny and i'm sure one of the Posters cited an eg. but someone on here may know for sure.

[autocoupler]

Hi Auto, and everybody else, I typed out a little starter piece on the 1952 date differences and made up a word doc with three imbedded photos below. I tried a copy-paste of the doc in the reply box, the text dropped in ok but the photos did not stick.
I have run out of talent at this point, I have pix as .jps and can create doc or pdf files but am clueless as to how to paste in the .jpgs.
Can anybody clue me up with a simple way of doing this from the docs and jpgs I have?
Thanks Fred.

Hi Fred, I'm no guru with this stuff, but I would do as follows;

Make certain the pixel size of your pic is less than 1200, I usually go for 960.

Click on Gallery in top tool bar of forum.
Create an album.
Click on upload file.
Click on Select album.
Click on choose file.
The system will then allow you to select a number of picture files from your computer, then when the pic is uploaded, you can add details if you wish, then update.
Click on an image, where below will appear various file information.
Copy the forum linking code.
You can then paste that code into any post, presto, the image should appear.

[fred lever]

Ah, thanks Auto, I will get a PC guru tomorrow visit me and go through the procedure you outline. looks like it has to be an internal linkage  only.
Cheers, Fred.

[Mister T]

There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.

Source?

[fred lever]

Hi Auto, i'm struggling ! check out my post #44, I only succeeded in putting in HTTP links.
Fred.

[JeffH]

Easiest way is to use the forum gallery as suggested above. Make sure picture file size is less than 1MB. Works well with jpg files but may also be able to load other formats.
It is really simple -just try it.

[nealeffendi]

There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.

Source?

Yes, that rumour seems spurious. There was about a million '31s struck with a mis-aligned date (and English obverse) so what difference does it make that an extremely small mintage was struck with the Indian as well.
As for how mis-aligned the date was it really isn't up there with the other bad dates (like the '24 florins mostly missing a chunk of the 4, the wide date pennies of 1915 and 1922 and of course the overdate threepence of 1922/21). 
Then there are all the rough surfaces and spurs on so many pennies, the ground off trefoils, the CBLs, the missing or very weak top scrolls, numerous die cracks that we all love (3 legged emu etc). Far too many crappy coins out there by 1931 for the mint to worry about a dropped 1.

[autocoupler]

Hi Auto, and everybody else, I typed out a little starter piece on the 1952 date differences and made up a word doc with three imbedded photos below. I tried a copy-paste of the doc in the reply box, the text dropped in ok but the photos did not stick.
I have run out of talent at this point, I have pix as .jps and can create doc or pdf files but am clueless as to how to paste in the .jpgs.
Can anybody clue me up with a simple way of doing this from the docs and jpgs I have?
Thanks Fred.

I looked at my database and found I had about 100 off 1952 variety/errors listed and out of the 100 about 30 were date variations. Its many years since I collected these coins and my descriptions are based on the coin catalogues of the time that suggested there were about a dozen die types.
I know how wrong I was about this, particularly after I read David Brigg's first edition on Coppers where he mentions and has photos of more than 20 different dies and the number was growing the more he looked. I will go along with that! In my book on Australian coins I listed 11 varieties but I was way off the pace. The most rare type of hub or die is the one where the "2" is way above the line of the rest of the numbers.
I looked at my little holding of coins and found three that are all slightly different and qualify for that description. There may have been a common hub that defined the broad position of the "2" and then possibly each die was hand punched to sharpen up the "2" impression thus giving the subtle differences.
I reckon Fig 3 is the winner in crudeness and best matches Briggs description of an out of line "2" possibly tilted to the right AND the distorted DOT after the A. Where you blow the image up, the dot is almost a triangle shape while the others are pretty round.

..........................................

Well I did my best which is obviously not good enough as I have only succeeded in putting the http links into the empty spaces.
The links then click to the images but of course what I want is the images imbedded for all to see at once not just a line of numbers!

Anybody like to tell me what I did wrong or did not do!!

Fred.

Fred, Just flying by the seat of my pants with this, but I copied your pics into a word file then changed to a picture file and uploaded to forum how I explained previously.

Just looking at the numeral 2, except for the 2 in fig.1 which appears to be heavier or thicker through, the 2 in each pic looks to be oriented at the same height and angle to me.

When you say there is evidence of 20 or more dies, are you referring to die markers, but not differing positions of the 2 for example? 

I dug up a pic of my only right tilted 2 and included it at the bottom for comparison.   

Fig. 1


Fig. 2



Fig. 3






Pointed serif 2 tilts right. Note the wavy top on the foot. Overall a finer font. Smaller dot after A in AUSTRALIA.




Aligned pointed serif 2. Note the wave is less pronounced. Overall a slightly heavier font. Larger oval dot after A in AUSTRALIA.


Aligned pointed serif 2. Note the crook of the 2 turns back on itself more than the previous two examples. Large round dot after A in AUSTRALIA. IMO the 2 is same font as square serif below.


Square serif. Note the crook of the 2 also turns back on itself, IMO the 2 is same font as pointed serif above. Large round dot after A in Australia.

[fred lever]

Thanks Auto, I am a bit slow on the uptake with tech matters, promise to do better!
With the numbers of coining dies:  I estimate up to 100 dies may have been consumed at Perth, and those may have come from maybe 5 hubs. The hubs would give a commonality to the lots of coining dies so one would only expect maybe only 5 different appearances of coins , BUT, two other factors, 1/ the individual coining dies may have had work done on them to sharpen up the date by individual punching or even the last numeral entered by hand and not part of the hub impression, 2/ the working dies chip and splinter on those sharp points like the foot of the "2". Both of those mean the "2" may be in many positions and have many shapes particularly around the foot.
Thus the more I look at my 1952 coins, (as did David Briggs) the more you realise the variations are endless!
The figure of 20 is just a minimum depending on how finely you want to measure the position of the 2.
The 3 images you have saved for me are just 3 of what I would call "tilted" 2's where the 2 is patently out of line with other coins. but note they are subtly different. Fig 1 takes the cake for out of line. Note also there is a correlation about the DOT after the A. Briggs noted how the position and size of the dot changes and this should follow a HUB for surely they would not have been handpunching the dot onto each striking die? Anyway the more you look the more you see.
I have started an article on the 1952 Perth coin dates and my data base shows I have about 100 1952 coins in my "variety" collection. I'll be dragging all those out photographing them and then sitting down and coming to a conclusion after I join all the dots together. Your 52 has the "2" out of line and what I would have called a "tilted" 2. When you compare that with my 3 above you can see the differences in the position and tilting.
I have got a lot of research on my coins to do over this to be confident about anything, already I have photographed square foots and hook foots and serif foots and plain foots and wedge foots and uh-oh when you look closely they vary.....!
Veeery Interesting. Fred.

[Basil]

There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.

Source?

Yes, that rumour seems spurious. There was about a million '31s struck with a mis-aligned date (and English obverse) so what difference does it make that an extremely small mintage was struck with the Indian as well.
As for how mis-aligned the date was it really isn't up there with the other bad dates (like the '24 florins mostly missing a chunk of the 4, the wide date pennies of 1915 and 1922 and of course the overdate threepence of 1922/21). 
Then there are all the rough surfaces and spurs on so many pennies, the ground off trefoils, the CBLs, the missing or very weak top scrolls, numerous die cracks that we all love (3 legged emu etc). Far too many crappy coins out there by 1931 for the mint to worry about a dropped 1.

Coin Dealers from that era Mr T.,you will have to wait for the Book to see who.

Neal,you love picking at my Posts buts that's Ok,that's what Forums are for.
The point regarding the 1931 was that it was heavily sorted and it is highly probable the Dropped Indian was ID back then,not by self appointed experts in the 1970/80's,and the main point was that any/some 1930's in circulation would have been surely found.
It is 90%+ sure they were released into circulation in the late 1930's,or more likely the early 1940's,that is not a proven fact,its the most likely scenario given almost every/all verified 1930's were found 1940's+.

Neal,as regards your research re the NS of NSW Newsletters,also search Meeting Minutes if possible,apparently there are Resolutions regarding the 1930 that didn't make it to the Newsletter.
Heyde was also on the Numismatic Society of Australia 'Verification Committee'  during the 1960's,they had their work cut out verifying 1930 Pennies(among other things) as the Fakes appeared so a look thru. their Newsletters could also prove fruitful.
Also,if not already undertaken,approaching Phil Downies Family could also prove handy as they would have access to his Records/Notes/Manuscripts etc.He started his Business in 1931 would have had a wealth of knowledge on the various Coins of the post 1930 period.I've been told he was quoted in Print in the 1960's as saying he never saw a 1930 Penny until the 1940's,probably in the Age but i will pay for the time and trouble if anyone can find this article.
As an aside our family Friend feels he was the Melbourne Agent for the US Coin Dealer buying 1930 Pennies in the 1960's as he had a couple of trips to the US at the time,Family may know if this was true and if he entered into Contra. deals with American Coin Dealers.  

Anyway that should give you guys plenty to pick at,this is the wrong Thread to be discussing the 1930 so my next Posts will be in a dedicated Thread,with a bit more detail,down the track.

[autocoupler]

I have started an article on the 1952 Perth coin dates and my data base shows I have about 100 1952 coins in my "variety" collection. I'll be dragging all those out photographing them and then sitting down and coming to a conclusion after I join all the dots together.

Thanks for your thoughts Fred. In relation to something different, the pointed and square serif 2's, I have added a few additional pics to the previous post that would indicate at least three different pointed serif 2 fonts which includes the right tilted variety. One of these fonts seems to back up the theory that the square serif 2 is born from a die chip. Something for you to kick around. Cheers.

[Unicorn]

Love your work guys! Fair dinkum! :good:

[fred lever]

Thanks Auto i'll devote a couple of hours a day this week and get all the 52's I have categorised, a fresh start. Yes I recognise your coins "2" state and shapes. Must come up with descriptors for the serifs that cover all the possibilitys. Square serif is a given, then I have wedge and tooth and hook but as you point out there are the in between ones. I'll do my best!
Fred.

[nealeffendi]

Hi Basil
I pick at EVERY posters posts as I'm a pedantic bugger (used to proof read scientific papers when I was a CSIRO lab tech) and I pull apart many of Freds papers, critique David Brigg's tomes and generally enjoy researching the minutiae of pre decimal coins.
Even a major dealer such as Downie might not have come across a 1930 penny in the 1930s if they were initially released in another state (Glenelg in SA was the earliest find recorded in 1938)  and took a few years to move outside the local area. Melbourne in 1940 was the next recorded example (and that was only a record of where the museum official was, the specimen could have been found anywhere). Dave Raymond (Sydney) was the next record with about 10 passing through his shop after he put out an ad to buy them. During the war did the societies even operate as usual as a shortage of paper and everybody being busy would have made such a leisurely pastime something that very few would do so the knowledge of the existence of circulating 1930 pennies would barely be passed on. 
Also it is possible that others were found before the Glenelg example  but if the collector wasn't a coin society member he (she?) would be unlikely to report it. Not unlike the 1916 mule that was found in the early '30s but not reported until 1965. Remember until Owen Fleming started a society in the 1940s (NSNSW) for common folk like himself the coin societies were mostly snooty places run by gentlemen such as Dr Abbott and frowned upon the lower class of coin collectors such that few people joined the societies. For example my copy of "Rules of the Numismatic Society of Victoria" (1917) refers to Ladies and Gentlemen as members and requires prospective new members to pass a four-fifths vote and pay 7/6 annually (with that crossed out and 10/6 written). That was a full days wage back then (stats show the average weekly wage for men in 1914 was 46/9 in Victoria) so it kept all but the well off from joining.
Also sometimes a variety is recorded but for some reason is then forgotten, this was in part due to the societies going into hiatus during the Depression and those with the knowledge often dying in the meantime. Look at how many varieties were recorded in society journals and other publications in the period 1919-23 that were then forgotten. This includes the CBL/FBL types of 1919/20, the Double Dot of 1920 and the 22/21 overdate that Heyde fails to mention in his 1945 book. So perhaps somebody did mention having a 1930 penny in the 1930s but if nobody recorded or investigated the fact then we will never know. Likewise did anybody prior to Dean's time mention the existence of English/Indian obverses or mention that 3 different reverse masters existed for Geo V?
Coin varieties can also circulate for decades before their existence is known, this includes the 1919 double Dot, the 1920 Dot Above Top Scroll and the 1920 Dot Above English; so if nobody knew that the 1930 penny was in circulation then nobody would be looking for it (and how many noodlers were active in the 1930s until the end of the war). Until about 1961 a 1930 penny was only worth 3-4 pounds so noodling was still only a modest affair such that most 1930 pennies were still in circulation and then found in the period of the boom.

[Basil]

Hi Basil
I pick at EVERY posters posts as I'm a pedantic bugger (used to proof read scientific papers when I was a CSIRO lab tech) and I pull apart many of Freds papers, critique David Brigg's tomes and generally enjoy researching the minutiae of pre decimal coins.

No worries Neal,i enjoy this Forum and have learnt a lot over the few years its been going,moving on from the 1930 for the time being,Mods have been very good,surprised they let it go this long but i'll start a dedicated Thread down the track for anyone interested.
I would like to get at Phil Downies records/books,dates when certain years/varieties etc. first appeared,purchased direct or listed for Auction but as a Neville Nobody it would take someone who is known to the family or at least have some standing in the Coin Community to research it all.