Value of 21 missing penny major varieties

[autocoupler]

No worries from me Fred, I'm enjoying the conversation. What's interesting, is over a period of 50 years the value of an example in VF has increased ten fold, I doubt it's kept pace with inflation. 

A schooner of beer in 1969 cost around 20 cents, that's about 25 to 30 times cheaper than today. I'm sure if the same comparison was done with the necessities of life like bread, milk, eggs and butter, the outcome would be the same.

Same could be said for the average house price of 50 years ago compared to now. The only things which have increased in cost at the same rate as the 1930 penny, would be motor cars and electrical goods, mainly due to Asian manufacturing.

Having said that, I do remember an older workmate telling me he purchased a three in one television back in 1956 for 600 guineas, that's the equivalent of $1260, or $12,600 today at ten fold inflation  :shok: :shock: Sorry, got off the track a bit   :huh:

[Basil]

In the 1960's again,Numismatists who were researching the origins of the 1930 Penny traced it back to being released in some numbers during the 2nd WW.As usual with this Coin there is no proof but they joined dots,speculated and had a educated opinion that during the 1940's Coin shortage a box of 1930's was found and released into circulation.
I don't know if that happened,but its possible given the people offering this theory were Numismatists who were alive during the 1940's.

[fred lever]

So, Basil. John Sharples and Walter Bloom, their papers published in the JNNA issues are not factual essays?!!!!!!!
I assume you have the mentioned JNNA journals in your library and have read the research papers indicated?
So what did you make of  John Sharple's research in his Vol 3  paper and is Walter Bloom also just "joining the dots" with no actual facts in his Vol 21 paper?
I think both gentlemen will be very interested in your critique of their JNNA papers.
I also assume you have read the late William Mulletts book on Australian Coins from cover to cover. What did you make of the work of the man that retired  as senior  technical officer after 40 years devotion to the Mint. Was he just writing with no actual facts and joining the dots?
I am sure that the members of the Numismatic  Society and the Mullett family will be fascinated with your observations.
I may be a bit light hearted in my opinion pieces published regarding coins, but note have had around 100 essays published on various topics, but base many observations on researched facts.
I ask you directly, have you read the JNNA essays by Sharples, Bloom regarding the topic and have you read the book produced by William Mullett?
Await your reply.
Fred.

[nealeffendi]

Almost no chance that they were released during the war as the curator at the Melbourne museum had seen one by 1940 (and that was before there was the scramble to find enough coins to cover the yank invasion). Also I have never seen an article from the 1960s by any Numismatist with research claiming that they were released during the war (and I spent many hundreds of hours years ago going through old numismatic society journals, Spinks Numismatic Circulars, microfiche of old newspapers etc in the State and Mitchell libraries and I also hunted for original printings of Australian coin publications).
To quote John Gartner "This coin was in general circulation for several years before collectors knew, in fact, that it had been issued. Consequently this coin, with the exception of a few proofs, is not available in uncirculated condition". That was on page 37 of The Australian Coin Catalogue (1966). No mention of being a wartime release or of swap a penny.
Another top pair of numismatists from that era (J. Hunt Deacon and Kenneth Irons) put out Australian Commonwealth Coinage 1910-1960 (Numismatic Society of SA, 1961) and they simply wrote that some have been noted.
Gilbert Heyde published Coins (1945) with a preface dated 1944 and an ad for Dave Raymond inside the back cover (a dealer who handled about 10 of them in 1945) includes the 1930 penny as vr (very rare) so presumably this publication would have been read by coin society members by 1945, so had the penny only been released 2-3 years earlier then all the examples found by 1945 would have still been decent.
Every indication is that they were released during the early 1930s and circulated for over a decade before they became more widely known to collectors and dealers (1944-45); had they been released during the early 1940s the amount of wear on the dozens put into collections during the 1940s would be such that those early finds would be mostly gVF or better.
Also it takes time for coins to migrate from where they are released yet by 1945 examples had turned up in at least 3 states with Glenelg (SA) in 1938, Melbourne (Vic) 1940 and Sydney having at least 10 going through Raymonds shop.

[Basil]

Fred.

Fred,i edited my post,i don't want to upset you as i've been told you have Health problems.

Neal,the WW11 Theory was common in the 1950/60's,that's what Fred was talking about when mentioning the guy  sitting on the box of 1930 coins.
The only fact was there was an acute shortage of Coins in the early 1940's and the 1930 Penny did not start turning up in circulation,in numbers,until the late 1940's/50's,by the time the Public was aware of the Coin in the 1960's it was well found.
Researchers speculated that the MM had released every Coin they had by 1942 and there must have been a box/bin/bag of previously minted Coins including the 1930,released into circulation to try and meet Banking requests..
One of the reasons given is the simple one used by current researchers,if they were released in 1931 or even later in the 30's why were they not found by Numismatists?,why were they not in collections at that time,the fact is they did not show in circulation in any sort of numbers until after WW11.
The same argument has also been applied to the 'swap' theory,if true where are they?,they would have been a hot item that collectors would fight to collect,but none showed in collections or anywhere else for that matter.
I'm sure the first article i read in the early 1960's mentioned VIP visitors were given a penny,this was left out of later articles and books on the subject and morphed into 'Mint Visitors'.
If true it must have been only a handful of Coins given out as during the 1930's ,for all intent and purpose,this Coin did not exist in the public arena,if it had the Dealers would have made a killing,but not one turned up.

I've included a scan of the Heyde Book you referred to,this is the earliest,disregarding gossip,rumour,urban myths  and dicey Newspaper reports, non-Govt. factual account of the 1930 Penny we have been able to find at this time.
I think you said Heyde had 7 or 8 1930 Pennies,our Family Friend who was a Dealer at the time and knew Heyde,said the figure was probably 3 or 4 times that figure,all found post WW11, given the number he and his cronies at the NS of NSW auctioned off.They made a killing on the 1930 penny post WW11..

Anyway i'm not knowledgeable enough,or arrogant enough,to assume all of the above is 100% correct,especially since its over 50 years since these guys did their research,just letting you guys know there are alternate views to your own out there.

Again,sorry Fred,i hope you keep posting your knowledge as i enjoy the discussion on the subjects i'm interested in and also i have been asked to help prepare a Book on the subject as the Author is loosing his sight.

[Mister T]

One of the reasons given is the simple one used by current researchers,if they were released in 1931 or even later in the 30's why were they not found by Numismatists?,why were they not in collections at that time,the fact is they did not show in circulation in any sort of numbers until after WW11.

Not that many were made for them to be found and coin collecting wasn't what it is today: tt still took until February 2002 for the 2000 dollar mule to be noticed.
Also, the Melbourne Mint recorded 0 1930 pennies as having been struck for circulation, so anyone who was interested enough to ask them would have been left with the impression that it was like a 1930 threepence, sixpence, shilling or florin i.e. non-existent.

[fred lever]

So Basil, I take it from your refusal to answer my question, you have not read and understood the work specifically on the origin of the 1930 penny by John Sharples  and Walter Bloom in the JNNA journals and not read the section on production of pennys 1929 to 1931 in Mulletts book on Australian Coins?
Simple question requires a simple answer, yes, or, no.
Fred.

[Basil]

So Basil, I take it from your refusal to answer my question, you have not read and understood the work specifically on the origin of the 1930 penny by John Sharples  and Walter Bloom in the JNNA journals and not read the section on production of pennys 1929 to 1931 in Mulletts book on Australian Coins?
Simple question requires a simple answer, yes, or, no.
Fred.

Fred,i have read parts,including the bits you love quoting,so i'll leave it at that until i get permission to Post some Documents from the 1960's.

[Basil]

[quote pid='120501' dateline='1570706095']

One of the reasons given is the simple one used by current researchers,if they were released in 1931 or even later in the 30's why were they not found by Numismatists?,why were they not in collections at that time,the fact is they did not show in circulation in any sort of numbers until after WW11.

Not that many were made for them to be found and coin collecting wasn't what it is today: tt still took until February 2002 for the 2000 dollar mule to be noticed.
Also, the Melbourne Mint recorded 0 1930 pennies as having been struck for circulation, so anyone who was interested enough to ask them would have been left with the impression that it was like a 1930 threepence, sixpence, shilling or florin i.e. non-existent.
[/quote]

I feel like i'm in a tag Team match here.LOL.Sorry Mr.T,for some reason i'm having trouble quoting your Post but its sitting above.

That's possible,one of the few facts about the 1930 Penny,other than people joining dots to present a opinion,was there was a small Mint run of a Penny dated 1930.
Numismatists sorted(and still do) Thousands of Coins a Week,it would have been found very quickly if it had been released in 1931 or even early 1930's,they did not exist in Circulation ,AFAIK,at that time,remember,even back then ,1930's,they were looking for 23 Halves and the 1925 so no shortage of lookers.
The articles i have scanned for a Family Friend are from the early 1960's and make a lot of sense regarding the 1930,at least to me.I will Post them here down the track when/if i get permission.
The Author made the point all 1930's found at that point were circulated,so gave little creedence to the popular 'swap' theory.If it did happen it was only a 1 or 2,handful at best, Coins,he pointed out Numismatist's would have been on them in a flash with Dealers fighting for one.There was nothing that we can find in print saying anything about the 1930,and according to Neal,the Visitors Record at the MM showed Numismatic Society(s) did visit in 1930.
His opinion was that the chance that the Penny was released in 1931 or even the early 1930's is probably 10% or less for the simple reason none were found,none in high end sets,"for all intent and purpose"they did not exist at that time.
The next window was the late 1930's as we moved to the Kangaroo,he rates this a 20% possibility for the same reasons,they were not found in main stream collecting.
The next window is 1942(thereabouts),although not widely known,Newspapers were under Govt. censorship at the time,Banks In Sydney and Brisbane ran out of Coins. Emergency supplies were only stop gap until India came on line,this is when he feels the 'box' of 1930's  was collected from there hidey-hole at the Mint and placed into Circulation,chance of probability 70%.
He presents some very good arguments for this theory,all 1930's up to that point(1960) were retrieved from Circulation and every Coin he could trace was found post war,indicating a 1940's release by the Mint.
There a couple more reasons he gives but as they relate to Heyde and his cronies i won't mention them at this
 point.Now,to the point,to dismiss this theory as 'myth' without any facts to the contrary is just folly and arrogance. 
The Coin shortage in the early 1940's is fact,its not an opinion or someone joining dots,its fact,Banks could not cash checks or make up pay-packets.
In the RD article i posted earlier the Author said the reason for this shortage was the influx of US Servicemen,partly true but not the whole story. The Oz. Govt. was paying the wages,or support,for thousands of Foreign Servicemen/Civil Servants/Politicians after the fall of Singapore,British,NZ,Dutch,Indians etc, large amounts of cash were flowing to the NT and WA leaving the eastern State Banking system with shortages.Also at this time large amounts of Currency were being sent o/seas,NG in particular,to pay the troops and local militia and Labourers.,later the Solomons and associated Islands.
I should also add that average Families were hoarding Coins in the early 1940's as the Japs. prepared to invade,the Oz Psyche at that time placed more comfort in Silver/Copper than paper Notes that would be worthless when the Japs. actually landed.Another reason for the 1940's Coin shortage which was far more serious than the Govt. and Bank Executives let on.  
Anyway that's one possibility relating to origins of the  1930 Penny,dismiss as myth to your peril,especially if you are worried about your standing in the Coin/Note Collecting community,a problem,as a Neville Nobody who knows nothing,i don't have.

[autocoupler]

Just something from left field, would it be possible to find out the provenance of the highest graded circulation 1930 penny we know of? I remember just a few years ago, Downies or IAG auctions were at the Brisbane ANDA show displaying a high grade 1930 penny they had for sale, I viewed the coin and it was easily gEF+ IMO.

A coin of this grade would not have been in the system all that long, just a guess but twelve months at best, before being plucked from circulation, and wouldn't have had too many owners since. Do you think there is the slightest chance the provenance of a coin like this could be traced? If so, it sure would give an indication of when it was released.

[fred lever]

Hi Auto, from your last post on the topic,
1/  re the value of coins, yes the 1930 is badly overvalued and like a lot of other collectables plummeted in value after the bust in the first decade of 2000's. The 1930 that I bought in F grade for $4000 around 1980 something ( yes I paid too much) would auction for $20,000 at the best in 2019. That 5 x rise in 40 years say, and the investment  gurus amongst it can work out whether that's a good investment or not! I also note that a specimen in POOR condition I was offered at the same time at $1000 has popped up from time to time in auctions usually for $5000 or so. (its the corroded pock marked one).
2/ That 1952 variety I mentioned for your Major Variety list, i'll try and dig out my example and photo it so you can see exactly which die i'm talking about. I can pinch a picture of it from David Briggs book but I would rather post up my own pix.
Cheers, Fred.

[JeffH]

Interesting debate and a touch of the John Farnham Farewell Tour -"this will be my last comment on this thread" or similar.

I have a question... The swap a penny when visiting the mint story has been around for a long time; is there any evidence that this happened with other than 1930 pennies, different denominations or was any sort of known practice? I have never seen it mentioned in respect of anything other than 1930 pennies. If there is no evidence of such a practice otherwise surely that would be strong evidence it is not true?

[fred lever]

Hi JeffH, thanks for the very sensible question. (yes I feel like JF, except I don't get paid for reruns! But anyway... ok fellows, 1 and a 2 and a 3 away we go!)

 The very earliest verifiable written record of the myth I can find in my library of 1930 research (several hundred documents) are the booklets issued by "seven seas" (you stamp guys will know all about them) a/ in the  1978 "readers Digest booklet", b/ the 1981 "Seven seas stamps" booklet for collectors (both identical press and print). They quoted Estella Robinson (the researcher) as having said coins were exchanged. After that the story started popping up in the Australian Coin Review "letters from readers" page and I have documented all these appearances in my "1930 Final Word " article (December 2017) in the paragraph "When did the myth start?"  Estella would be spinning in her grave about that spurious use of her name she being one of the most highly regarded and verified researcher in coin stamps and script.
I cannot find any previous VERIFIABLE printed or written source for the fable. I would love it if anyone could find a VERFIABLE source previous to those dates. NOT what some one remembers that their uncle heard a man saying who had a friend working at the mint, but a printed copy from a respectable source.
Did any coins come out of the mint other than the official "proof/specimen" and circulating issues, YES probably, there are collections documented over the years that contained wonderful state coins and no doubt there would be receipts from the mint masters office obtained at the time and at society functions there are records of new minted coins being displayed for comment looking at what the Sydney/Melbourne mints could do. I have not documented any of these instances not being interested.

Cheers, Fred (Farnham)


Apologies again for high-jacking the thread

[fred lever]

Hi Auto, and everybody else, I typed out a little starter piece on the 1952 date differences and made up a word doc with three imbedded photos below. I tried a copy-paste of the doc in the reply box, the text dropped in ok but the photos did not stick.
I have run out of talent at this point, I have pix as .jps and can create doc or pdf files but am clueless as to how to paste in the .jpgs.
Can anybody clue me up with a simple way of doing this from the docs and jpgs I have?
Thanks Fred.



Fig 1.
https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/931a.jpg




















Fig 2.
https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/587.jpg















Fig 3.
https://www.australian-coins.net/gallery/albums/userpics/11203/491/394.jpg







I looked at my database and found I had about 100 off 1952 variety/errors listed and out of the 100 about 30 were date variations. Its many years since I collected these coins and my descriptions are based on the coin catalogues of the time that suggested there were about a dozen die types.
I know how wrong I was about this, particularly after I read David Brigg's first edition on Coppers where he mentions and has photos of more than 20 different dies and the number was growing the more he looked. I will go along with that! In my book on Australian coins I listed 11 varieties but I was way off the pace. The most rare type of hub or die is the one where the "2" is way above the line of the rest of the numbers.
I looked at my little holding of coins and found three that are all slightly different and qualify for that description. There may have been a common hub that defined the broad position of the "2" and then possibly each die was hand punched to sharpen up the "2" impression thus giving the subtle differences.
I reckon Fig 3 is the winner in crudeness and best matches Briggs description of an out of line "2" possibly tilted to the right AND the distorted DOT after the A. Where you blow the image up, the dot is almost a triangle shape while the others are pretty round.

..........................................

Well I did my best which is obviously not good enough as I have only succeeded in putting the http links into the empty spaces.
The links then click to the images but of course what I want is the images imbedded for all to see at once not just a line of numbers!

Anybody like to tell me what I did wrong or did not do!!

Fred.

[Basil]

[quote pid='120452' dateline='1570335532']
autocoupler
[/quote]

Just something from left field, would it be possible to find out the provenance of the highest graded circulation 1930 penny we know of? I remember just a few years ago, Downies or IAG auctions were at the Brisbane ANDA show displaying a high grade 1930 penny they had for sale, I viewed the coin and it was easily gEF+ IMO.

A coin of this grade would not have been in the system all that long, just a guess but twelve months at best, before being plucked from circulation, and wouldn't have had too many owners since. Do you think there is the slightest chance the provenance of a coin like this could be traced? If so, it sure would give an indication of when it was released.

Very difficult you would think,as any item received by a Dealer or Auction House has their provenance gilded so actual background may be lost in the interest of reward.  

I think you have to keep an open mind with the 1930,stating the obvious,as facts are few and far between,a UNC. Coin,or several,may turn up Tomorrow,"Toorak or Double Bay family selling keepsakes/heirlooms" or whatever,on that subject what happened to Kerry Packer's 1930's he collected in the 1970's ? 

As regards the 1930 Penny being released into circulation in the early 1930's,there is almost no chance that happened,probably less than 10%.A couple of good points about the matter make a lot of sense.There were several rumours rife about the 1931 mintage when it was released,Numismatists couldn't believe the Mint would release a Coin with a mis-aligned Date,it was rumoured it was a mistake and would be recalled and also that it was a extremely small mintage.Accordingly it was a hot ticket item for a few years,Numismatic Society Members and Coin Club Members were sorting Thousands of Coins a Day,any 1930 Penny would have been quickly found.As an aside,someone back then probably ID that a couple of the 'dropped 1'  Pennies had a Indian Obverse so the identity of this Coin was probably known well before the Downie auctions of the 1960's. 
Similarly,the overdated 1933 Penny was also heavily sort back then until the Mintages became clear,accordingly most rearchers from the 1950/60's assumed the 1930 was not released in the early 1930's,most likely 90% sure,late 1930's possibly, but more likely during the Coin shortage of the early 1940's.   

My Brains Trust informant was born in 1930 and has had an interest in the Coin over the years,owning a couple back in the 1950's.He started collecting Stamps/Coins as a kid in the late 1930's and professionally from the late 1940's.He hasn't been involved since the 1970's but still maintains a strong interest and wants his views,on several pre-Dec. Coins and Mint related matters from back then in print before he dies.He's not looking for arguments or debates,just putting his views out there for others to discuss as he is sick of the rubbish and general misinformation that's been published over the last 20-30 years.