Value of 21 missing penny major varieties

autocoupler · September 26, 2019, 08:58:58 PM

To my knowledge there has never existed a price list that faithfully attributes a value to all recognised penny major varieties, not in book form or on the internet. Most lists do include some historically well known examples that have always enjoyed prominence within the penny collecting scene, but it appears as though the publications are stuck in a pre 1960's time warp.

There are 21 recognised major varieties that will not be found in any price list that I can track down. An issue that arises from this observation is it's likely there are holders of these coins in the community who are oblivious to their existence let alone the value, the importance of this is exemplified even more so now that in recent times PCGS has added all major varieties to their sets.

I have put together a list of values, some taken from known sale and auction prices, others are imaginary if indeed an example existed in higher grade.

Would be interested to hear any overall thoughts, or thoughts on levels of value. Something to kick around. TIA

interest · September 26, 2019, 10:12:17 PM

you are right about not having a price list for those varieties,
have an idea now thanks ac.

Robster · September 27, 2019, 01:13:42 AM

Nice work - thanks for the effort

Unicorn · September 27, 2019, 07:50:09 AM

Great work Auto! :good:

Basil · September 27, 2019, 08:40:41 AM

Yeah,well done ,the 1921 English Obv. is reasonably plentiful as shown when Ebay started in Oz. so $10 each is probably in the ballpark as far as value goes although i've been picking them up for $1-5 on Ebay.
It was a con job by Dealers for Decades as far as mintage figures were concerned but us (amatuer/hobby) collectors are back to reality now,Thank you Internet.

123456789 · September 27, 2019, 10:30:43 AM

Great list, been needed for years.
Personally I think the 1922 Indian should be the same as the 1929 Indian
But fantastic what about the 1922 wide date?

autocoupler · September 27, 2019, 11:44:41 AM

I think major varieties are distinguished by the master dies used to produce the working dies, so features like differently spaced date numerals which were added later are not regarded as being part of the master, but there are others on the forum who would have a better idea. The various 1922 date width varieties are very interesting just the same.

To name a few, other well known varieties which don't qualify as major varieties are;

1913 - 14 - 15 left tilted 3, 4 and 5, 1916 - 17 - 18 missing I mint mark, 1924 filled 4, various 1925 varieties, 1926 running nose King, 1928 broken 8, 1939 dash after A, 1941 K.G with high dot after Y, 1941Y. roman nose on King, 1942Y. missing dot after Y, 1945Y. with large dot after KG, 1945Y. with wider spaced 4 and 5, 1951 PL with missing PL, 1952M with cud on 9, 1952A with doubled obverse legend, 1962Y. with double nose on Queen.

Getting back to the values table in the first post, I think the figures only need to be ball park, the main point being that they highlight a glaring difference to the uninitiated.

123456789 · September 27, 2019, 01:28:40 PM

Great list, been needed for years.
Personally I think the 1922 Indian should be the same as the 1929 Indian
But fantastic what about the 1922 wide date?

nealeffendi · September 27, 2019, 05:17:31 PM

Good list, I'm sure some of us will question if the assigned values are too low or too high. Now we have something to chatter over

serenitystan · September 28, 2019, 01:29:23 PM

''Great Work''..How would you place a price tag on a 1930 English obv penny in Mint Unc condition!!. Note-if there was such a thing...or one with an Indian obv..I have always thought there's something fishy about the 1930 penny as there are 1929 + 31 Unc's around but no 30tees...MMMMMM..You would think there would be at least maybe a couple.!!

nealeffendi · September 28, 2019, 02:47:10 PM

Quote from: '::serenitystan' pid='120379' dateline='1569643163'''Great Work''..How would you place a price tag on a 1930 English obv penny in Mint Unc condition!!. Note-if there was such a thing...or one with an Indian obv..I have always thought there's something fishy about the 1930 penny as there are 1929 + 31 Unc's around but no 30tees...MMMMMM..You would think there would be at least maybe a couple.!!

:huh: Don't think so. If there was a million 1931 pennies struck and 100 are Unc then that is 1 in 10,000 odds. If only a few thousand 1930 pennies were struck then odds are that none survived Unc. The odds are also affected by where a coin is released; if released in Sunshine, Dapto or Woop-Woop then there are no collectors to snare it and by the time it passes through the hands of a collector it has become distinctly circulated so he might not even take a second glance and notice the date, by the time it is noticed might be years/decades later. If released in Toorak or Double Bay then much higher odds of being kept as soon as it leaves the bank as more collectors, more spare wealth and a higher standard of residents.
And yes the values quoted for Unc 1930 English is way too low. If one ever came to market it would probably sell for what the top 1930 proof goes for.

serenitystan · September 28, 2019, 06:55:35 PM

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='120380' dateline='1569647830'
Quote from: '::serenitystan' pid='120379' dateline='1569643163'''Great Work''..How would you place a price tag on a 1930 English obv penny in Mint Unc condition!!. Note-if there was such a thing...or one with an Indian obv..I have always thought there's something fishy about the 1930 penny as there are 1929 + 31 Unc's around but no 30tees...MMMMMM..You would think there would be at least maybe a couple.!!
:huh: Don't think so. If there was a million 1931 pennies struck and 100 are Unc then that is 1 in 10,000 odds. If only a few thousand 1930 pennies were struck then odds are that none survived Unc. The odds are also affected by where a coin is released; if released in Sunshine, Dapto or Woop-Woop then there are no collectors to snare it and by the time it passes through the hands of a collector it has become distinctly circulated so he might not even take a second glance and notice the date, by the time it is noticed might be years/decades later. If released in Toorak or Double Bay then much higher odds of being kept as soon as it leaves the bank as more collectors, more spare wealth and a higher standard of residents.
And yes the values quoted for Unc 1930 English is way too low. If one ever came to market it would probably sell for what the top 1930 proof goes for.

''YEP'' but you would think a collector who had a complete Unc set of pennies from 1911 to 1929 would be hunting + talking to other collectors regarding if a 1930 will be struck on that year..As we do today even in Dapto + Woop Woop..

fred lever · September 29, 2019, 06:39:58 PM

Hi Stan "something fishy about the 1930 penny"? Please do not revive any fairy stories or myths about the striking of the 1930 dated penny. There has been a lot of research done regarding the production of pennies during the 1920's and 1930's and several articles produced by myself and others regarding the tooling leading to the dies used. My "the 1930 penny, the final word" printed in the December 2017 issue of CAB magazine covers a lot of the facts and has a bibliography of required reading for further reading. I was assisted greatly by coin forum members in providing me with access to coin images while researching for the article and thanks to all of you for that. Have a read of my article and you will see why the 1930 is so scarce and why there are so few in tip top condition. If you don't have access to the article let me know and I can email you a copy.
Cheers, Fred.

serenitystan · September 30, 2019, 08:43:13 AM

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='120386' dateline='1569748198'Hi Stan "something fishy about the 1930 penny"? Please do not revive any fairy stories or myths about the striking of the 1930 dated penny. There has been a lot of research done regarding the production of pennies during the 1920's and 1930's and several articles produced by myself and others regarding the tooling leading to the dies used. My "the 1930 penny, the final word" printed in the December 2017 issue of CAB magazine covers a lot of the facts and has a bibliography of required reading for further reading. I was assisted greatly by coin forum members in providing me with access to coin images while researching for the article and thanks to all of you for that. Have a read of my article and you will see why the 1930 is so scarce and why there are so few in tip top condition. If you don't have access to the article let me know and I can email you a copy.
Cheers, Fred.

"Yeah" Thank's Fred. Will chase up a copy of the mag and see if i can get rid of that FISHY Smell...LOL...

fred lever · September 30, 2019, 12:46:53 PM

The other interesting thing Stan mentioned regards collectors of the time 1920 to say 1930's.
My reading tells me that coin collectors round then were pretty thin on the ground, particularly if they wanted uncirculated coins.
The common folk like me may have collected the coppers mainly British but anything over that would be spent on unnecessary things like food and rent!
More well to do folk who collected all sorts of things may have decided to obtain new issue coins and there were a few well known collectors with extensive collections of gold silver and copper issues. Le Soufe springs to mind in Melbourne and working at the Mint certainly helped!
Folk like Le Soufe belonged to Societies who appreciated fine things and wanted things kept for posterity hence the big collections winding up in Museums. Thus there would have been a small select bunch of collectors with the necessary contacts or clout to go and get examples of unc coins direct from the Mint and that pretty much is where most of the UNC examples of anything were obtained. The
mint also pressed out sample strikes for the British Mint to review along with samples for the institutions in Oz. Some of the British Mint samples have found their way back to Oz as Mints reviewed their holdings and dispose of excess identical pieces. The Koshade family where the best 1916 Mule was saved certainly had a depth of collection that was alert to issues out of the ordinary. In those days you had to have a vocation of collecting to be involved. There certainly was not hundreds or thousands of collectors as we have now. I cant pluck any other names from memory at the moment, probably should do an article about old time collectors.....then i'll bet i'm dead wrong find out there were heaps of coin clubs and have dozens of people tell me so and that would be a good thing!
Most curiously and probably a reflection of the position that coinage had in most folks view of his time: Bill Mullett, with all of his access to every part of the Melbourne Mint and any coin you can think of, starting in the 1930's through the war and into the 1960's was not in the least interested in COIN COLLECTING, just making the things and shoveling them out the door. Later on there were people working in some Mints that DID form coin collections, both internal and external to the Mint, and if you dig about you can find fascinating things happened in the 1970's and 1980's with people exceeding their working briefs. It is probably best to keep a lid on that can of worms.
I wandered a bit there, but in our forum population there may be some people who DID have Grand fathers and Fathers that DID try to make serious collections of Australian coins and might like to mention it.
Fred.