Fabricated or real error?

trout · February 05, 2017, 10:55:20 PM

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2004-Baby-Coin-Set-in-Proof-MASSIVE-ERROR-SET-The-1-coin-missing-Hologram/331714303871?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D69d9019eb5a44fce92a8f27efdc2120a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D282279219831

The coins in these 2004 Baby proof sets come in "Airtight's" which are NOT sealed and can be easily tampered with or replaced.
The hologram on the $1 coin in these sets can be easily removed with acetone and according to the sellers description "it does not have a proof appearance" it appears to have been dipped or otherwise treated as well to remove the star shaped tarnish/toning that is so very common with this set.
This listing is not from an amateur eBay seller it is from a B&T Coin Dealer that should know better.
At least I hope that the dealer is "Misinformed" and is not trying to pull off a scam similar to the scam with the Coloured Proof 2000 Millennium 50c coin.
As with ALL of the "Missing" colour or design "Errors" where the pad printed coins are concerned a healthy scepticism is highly recommended.

What are your thoughts on this "Error"?

Fulvio · February 05, 2017, 11:45:58 PM

Looks like a product of the AJ Trout Mint Corp. :angel:

trout · February 06, 2017, 12:11:14 AM

Another missing paint "Error" :dodgy:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2012-2-Red-Poppy-Error-Coin-Missing-Poppy-Rare/142260227826?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140106155344%26meid%3D38c8a1be93f3444fae6d6a66365c9aee%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D201798616413

ausjack · February 06, 2017, 07:34:42 AM

Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='104948' dateline='1486300558'Looks like a product of the AJ Trout Mint Corp. :angel:

Hey hey hey, not cool dude :dodgy: We make legit errors :blush2: :angel: :laugh2:

JeffH · February 06, 2017, 08:13:34 AM

I have asked a question of that seller...

Quote"Looking closely one can see where the colour should be"
Surely you mean "where the colour was before it was removed with acetone"?

Nevol · February 06, 2017, 08:16:09 AM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='104949' dateline='1486302074'Another missing paint "Error"

:dodgy: You can see where the paint was. What a drongo. :shok:

Pedro · February 06, 2017, 08:25:47 AM

"the paint hasn't been scratched off" ... but missing the bit "we have used a treatment to remove it" :dodgy:

Pedro

trout · February 06, 2017, 09:24:20 AM

The Poppy coin is your usual eBay garbage But the 2004 Proof set listing is from a Dealer in Perth that actually has a shop in the City.
I find it hard to believe that this dealer is listing this "Newly found Error" :dodgy:

Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='104953' dateline='1486328682'
Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='104948' dateline='1486300558'Looks like a product of the AJ Trout Mint Corp. :angel:

Hey hey hey, not cool dude :dodgy: We make legit errors :blush2: :angel: :laugh2:

Yeah, We only specialise in "Vice Jobs" we don't mess about with chemicals :angel:

ausjack · February 06, 2017, 09:55:14 AM

:laugh2: yeah that's right trout, maybe some chemicals now and then

But now that I have a few buses that pass everyday I might be able to make some more extremely rare "road kill" coin

JeffH · February 06, 2017, 01:24:27 PM

Reply was;
"Hi, I did not do anything with this coin. If you look at the other one, there is also some paint off. And I have one more from the same set with the same condition."

Draw your own conclusion.

Fulvio · February 06, 2017, 03:06:11 PM

Quote from: 'JeffH' pid='104969' dateline='1486349667'Draw your own conclusion.

In other news, did you see that lovely double-struck $2? Price is obscene, but its a lovely coin.

trout · February 07, 2017, 09:11:12 AM

I sent the seller an email about this "Error" and I got a reply back asking if the airtights used in the set could be opened or not.

It is pretty hard to believe that an established Dealer is ignorant as to how various coin sets are packaged by the various Mints.
I have spoken to this dealer on a few occasions and I have bought coins at his shop and he doesn't come across as a "Simpleton" to Me :angel:

serial · February 07, 2017, 03:17:34 PM

I am going to have a look at this set in the next couple of days, I will take pics of the capsule if I can to see if it has been tampered with
as anyone who has opened up a proof set before knows, you have to break the seal on a capsule to open it and once this is done it is obvious whether it has been opened or not no matter how carful you are opening and shutting it back up. in my experience these sets have a small plastic weld that you have to cut through before you can open the capsule

trout · February 07, 2017, 03:24:35 PM

Quote from: 'serial' pid='104994' dateline='1486442854'I am going to have a look at this set in the next couple of days, I will take pics of the capsule if I can to see if it has been tampered with
as anyone who has opened up a proof set before knows, you have to break the seal on a capsule to open it and once this is done it is obvious whether it has been opened or not no matter how carful you are opening and shutting it back up. in my experience these sets have a small plastic weld that you have to cut through before you can open the capsule

The capsules in these sets are NOT sealed/glued and are Not unique and can be replaced with a new one with ease, They are just standard airtights.
I have opened hundreds of these and it can be done without damaging the capsules, So seeing if the capsule is undamaged doesn't prove that it is original or if it has been opened or not.

serial · February 07, 2017, 05:18:01 PM

OK trout, your shooting from the hip again without all the facts and in the mean time defaming ANOTHER respected member of the numismatic community
go look at your capsules (I know I saved all mine) and try to put one together again without any sign of tampering. the capsules are unique to RAM and are not standard airtites. See my pictures below to see how they are sealed and that the only way to open them (this is how I do it) is to take a thin blade, wiggle it into the gap till you hear a quiet crack (breaking of the seal) then carefully wiggle it the capsule apart evenly as the capsules are so tight.
note the inside of the capsule has little bits of plastic to hold the coin in place that is unique to these capsules as they are custom made for Ram coins despite your assertions.
show me pictures of a resealed ram capsule that shows no signs of tampering then I will reconsider my position, but unlike you I am unwilling to lynch someone without seeing the evidence for my self. hence why I will go in and see the coin before I pass judgement, for once you might like to do the same and stop hiding behind your usual grumpy old man/white knight defence you pull every time someone calls you out on your abusive nature.
I actually suggest this thread be deleted before someone ends up in a Perth court because I would love to know how you intend to prove a defence to defamation trout given you cant prove that your statement is true or reasonable given you have never personally examined the coin. the only preservable outcome I can see is you issuing a written apology after wasting part of your life and money on defending the matter as stupidity is not a valid defence to defamation
And before you shoot your mouth of about not being afraid to go to court why don't you think a bit about the cost this will have, legal fees, travel time/cost to attend a Perth court etc and the fact the website owners will be joined in the action for libel for publishing your defamatory statement about a person who can prove a financial loss due to your statements affecting his reputation.