Causes of "Die Flash" on Predecimal Silver

[trout]

Here are 4 more coins picked at random from a roll and all of them have identical marks in the flash.
I am going with Fulvio's theory about the die getting a scrape on it :ok:


 

[Unicorn]

Great pics Trout, they certainly show the consistency.

[markn]

Here are 4 more coins picked at random from a roll and all of them have identical marks in the flash.
I am going with Fulvio's theory about the die getting a scrape on it :ok:

I am seeing a polished die there with underlying die scratches.  Exactly what you'd expect to see when someone got a bit enthusiastic with a wire brush and then tried to polish out the scratches with a finer grade abrasive or polishing compounds.

[trout]

I am seeing a polished die there with underlying die scratches. Exactly what you'd expect to see when someone got a bit enthusiastic with a wire brush and then tried to polish out the scratches with a finer grade abrasive or polishing compounds.

So my coins are just die polish and not a die flash then :ok:
It is certainly not a good look on an otherwise nice  coin though :dash1:

[markn]

I am seeing a polished die there with underlying die scratches. Exactly what you'd expect to see when someone got a bit enthusiastic with a wire brush and then tried to polish out the scratches with a finer grade abrasive or polishing compounds.

So my coins are just die polish and not a die flash then :ok:
It is certainly not a good look on an otherwise nice  coin though :dash1:

I hadn't heard the term "die flash" before this thread was started so I really have no idea.  But what I see on your coin is what I described.  If that's what die flash is, then I guess it's die flash.

[trout]

I hadn't heard the term "die flash" before this thread was started so I really have no idea

You and me both Mate
Still it's not a bad term to describe something that has only affected a small portion of a coin all the same.
Most times the die polishing can be seen pretty much all over the coin and giving something like this a moniker isn't such a bad idea :good:

[r9453]

To me it looks a bit like the unintended result of some kind of mechanical process. MS66:

[Fulvio]

Still it's not a bad term to describe something that has only affected a small portion of a coin all the same.

I think its a terrible term, actually.

THIS is what flash is:



Basically the excess material squeezed out between dies.

So in coin terms, that would be the raised bits we see around the rims, especially on AlBr coins. You know, those extremely rare, "mule-like" double rims the feebay bottom feeders keep flogging.

I don't have any better terms in mind right now, but I'd like to think we can come up with something better. IF, that is, we need to differentiate them from the more pedestrian cleaning scratches at all.

[robbiegal]

I think this is an interesting topic
I was looking at an unc penny that is the old standard veiled queen variety
the coin was total unc and when I was having a close look the 'veil'around queenies head had these similar lines  
i always wondered what caused this error  

if i can capture it on camera I will post it

[Cockatoo Coins]

I am seeing a polished die there with underlying die scratches. Exactly what you'd expect to see when someone got a bit enthusiastic with a wire brush and then tried to polish out the scratches with a finer grade abrasive or polishing compounds.

So my coins are just die polish and not a die flash then :ok:
It is certainly not a good look on an otherwise nice  coin though :dash1:

I hadn't heard the term "die flash" before this thread was started so I really have no idea.  But what I see on your coin is what I described.  If that's what die flash is, then I guess it's die flash.

Yeah i hadn't seen it described until recently, Jim Noble used in on a couple of his coins, then noticed Walter had aswell in the latest numisbid auction. Prior to that it seemed like it was something people put in the too hard basket.
I do like Marks answer although why so many of the 1960's silver seem to be affected to varying degrees still has me baffled. Must have made the same mistake with the dies a couple of times or adjusted the polish a few times. Could also be a  coincidence that a bulk amount of those which survived in mint state came from this repaired die

[nealeffendi]

Here are 4 more coins picked at random from a roll and all of them have identical marks in the flash.
I am going with Fulvio's theory about the die getting a scrape on it :ok:

I am seeing a polished die there with underlying die scratches.  Exactly what you'd expect to see when someone got a bit enthusiastic with a wire brush and then tried to polish out the scratches with a finer grade abrasive or polishing compounds.

We will have to agree to disagree. A wire brush would leave thin grooves and all of the same width, these lines vary in thickness and unlike you would expect from a wire brush the lines are dead straight and parallel. No signs of criss-crossed lines that normally are seen from dies being cleaned up and no sign of any curved or circular motion in the lines.
Perhaps Fulvio is correct with the scrape theory and perhaps something like a paint scraper was dragged across the surface.

[trout]

I think that we can all agree that this is caused by a problem with the die and not pre strike or post strike damage because of the identical markings over several coins.
If something was dragged across the die, The die came into contact with something or was harshly wire brushed and the die was damaged because of this then I imagine that all we would see on the finished coin would be just the scratches.
This isn't the case with the coins I have, There is also an area where the scratches are on the coin that appears to be smooth and polished compared to the fields on the rest of the coin.
So Marks theory definitely holds water when he says that the damaged area has been polished in an attempt to repair the die.
Wither it is a result of over zealous use of a wire brush or an accidental contact that damaged the die in the first place It does appear to have been subject to a polish in an attempt to repair that damage.

[robbiegal]

my photographic skills aren't the best
but this coin definitely has similar lines to my eye
so my point is that it's not only a silver coin phenomena
I hope you guys can see the lines in my pics - of course they are clear as day under the loupe!

 

[autocoupler]

There is a tool called a scraper (don't even think about it AJ :mocking::angel:), usually made from an old file which has the leading face  ground at about 90 degrees to form a nice sharp edge. The application where they might be used is where a burr or some kind of raised anomaly has had a detrimental effect on a flat surface. As the term implies, they are used in a back and forth scraping motion to remove miniscule unwanted high spots, often in conjunction with a surface plate and prussian blue as a witness marker, but that's another story. My point is that whenever scrapers were used, the area worked on was always easily identifiable by the small shiny surface patches they left. These days they probably use surface grinders, lazy buggers :angel:  

To me it seems logical that the tool room guys at the Mint from time to time may have used similar tooling to remove field surface defects from the dies, not just wire brushes which would be useless where any amount of raised metal surface was an issue.

Anyhow, I was looking at a few coins,  and incredibly stumbled upon another 1956 florin with the same die flash marks as the coin I posted earlier in this thread. It then dawned on me that I had seen this type of effect before as marks from a scraping tool. All supposition I know, but what isn't without concrete evidence.

This is the first coin I posted.



It's not quite as clear on this coin, but is at the same spot ATI at base of bust, and displays the same die crack.

[Fulvio]

There is a tool called a scraper ... identifiable by the small shiny surface patches they left.

One thing I've been meaning to ask..

Why is the 'default' field not shiny in the first place? I mean, in comparison to decimals, the finish looks sort of satin. Except, of course, where the scrapes are.

Is this because of the chrome plating now standard? That started at the tail end of predecimals though. A difference in the planchets?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :scratch_one-s_head: