Causes of "Die Flash" on Predecimal Silver

Cockatoo Coins · August 16, 2016, 12:50:57 PM

Something that has had me wondering for years and never really found a satisfactory answer. The term used to describe it in the industry is "Die Flash" but what exactly has happened to the die to give this change in surface condition from the standard frosty lustre that covers the rest of these coins.
I've cracked rolls where every coin has the same die flash marks in the same zone so my thoughts are it has to be die related. If someone can clarify this for me it would be greatly appreciated.

Just as an example if you are unsure what I'm talking about, just grabbed this example from the PCGS pop report, graded MS66

robbiegal · August 16, 2016, 03:23:38 PM

pennies get it too
but I don't know what it is called

trout · August 16, 2016, 04:51:02 PM

I have a roll of 63 6d's that are affected like this as well, I always thought that this sort of thing is caused by the ejector mechanism in the press being faulty :ok:

Cockatoo Coins · August 16, 2016, 05:09:16 PM

I had similar views until I saw it went underneath the legends perfectly without any damage caused to the lettering. Leant me towards it ocurring during the actual striking vs anything after

Just something I want to be able to explain to customers aswell

trout · August 16, 2016, 05:18:44 PM

Maybe the planchet is getting marked up as it is fed into the press as I doubt that it is something on the die itself that causes this.
The damage isn't raised or incused on my coins, it is just a different "Look" on the fields.

Fulvio · August 16, 2016, 05:24:50 PM

Interesting.

Never taken any notice myself, but here's what comes immediately to mind...

Its on the field, so the surface of the die, not the incused portions of the design. And its not cleaning/polishing marks, which would be much more pronounced.

So my thinking is that the die has come into contact with something hard enough to mark it, but not violently enough to take a bite out of it. Maybe its been placed on a bench face down, and picked up the contact marks that way? Or something was placed on top of it with the same result. Maybe trays of dies with the top one slid across?

Regardless, I'd say its almost certain this didn't occur in a press, but earlier in the process.

trout · August 16, 2016, 05:33:47 PM

I just dug one up and have taken a couple of images of my coins.
It is only the obverse that is affected and it certainly looks like a scrape mark, A shame really because the reverse is quite good.

Fulvio · August 16, 2016, 05:45:38 PM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='94727' dateline='1471334627'looks like a scrape mark

That one's cleaning scratches.

I thought you didn't collect errors, mate.

JeffH · August 16, 2016, 05:51:29 PM

That certainly seems to support Fulvio's hypothesis.

trout · August 16, 2016, 05:51:51 PM

Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='94729' dateline='1471335338'
Quote from: 'trout' pid='94727' dateline='1471334627'looks like a scrape mark

That one's cleaning scratches.

I thought you didn't collect errors, mate.

The funny thing is that there are no raised or incused marks on the coin, the affected area is smooth and you have to angle the coin in the light to see this.
Most of the die polish marks I have seen are raised lines on a coin, not smooth like this is .
If it is an error then I have pretty much a roll full

Cockatoo Coins · August 16, 2016, 06:32:54 PM

PCGS will grade them as if they don't exist so can't be any damage to the surface of the coin. Lightly clashed dies are possible but see too much in the way of variation between examples for that to be a clear cut answer

Fulvio · August 16, 2016, 06:35:04 PM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='94732' dateline='1471335711'the affected area is smooth and you have to angle the coin in the light to see this.

Oh?

Well, they certainly LOOK raised in those pics.

Hmmm....

trout · August 16, 2016, 06:44:18 PM

Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='94737' dateline='1471338304'
Quote from: 'trout' pid='94732' dateline='1471335711'the affected area is smooth and you have to angle the coin in the light to see this.

Oh?

Well, they certainly LOOK raised in those pics.

Hmmm....

I have got these in saflips in a ziplock with "Buggered" written on a sticker on the ziplock :angel:

robbiegal · August 16, 2016, 07:00:21 PM

not sure if they show up in the pics here but this beautiful penny has quite a few of those marks
then the reverse has what almost looks like those weight alignment lines that you see on the 8 reales

nealeffendi · August 16, 2016, 08:55:22 PM

PCGS doesn't reject them as I have them on threepences and sixpences graded 66 and 67, so you had better cross out bugger from your saflips Trout. They seem to be more common on QEII threepences and sixpences but I have at least one GeoV sixpence with die flash. Has anyone seen them on KEVII coins or on Crowns?