2007 Double Headed 5c

[r9453]

I plan on taking a close look and asking many questions next time I'm up there for a tour. Hopefully so will everyone else, and we can get to the bottom of this. With pictures.

Are the dies used for business strikes essentially the same as those used for MS and Proof strikes - apart from any treatment of the surface (of the die)? In other words, do all the dies fit into the various presses, I can imagine the dies used in the business strike presses being different to ones used for the proof presses.

However, since one die requires some kind of modification in order for it to fit facing the wrong way (down instead of up)? It might be that both dies needed to be modified. On the other hand, maybe proof dies were used at the end of the genuine production run.

[Ozcoins]

If these are mint sport (and it seems they must be).
Why smuggle them out, then spend them?
Why not put them in with the normal coins if you want them in circulation?
Has anyone got any proof that someone was caught doing anything bad?

[trout]

Why not put them in with the normal coins if you want them in circulation?

I would think that putting them into circulation wasn't the reason these were made, It was more about making money than making mischief :dodgy:

[Ozcoins]

Why not put them in with the normal coins if you want them in circulation?

I would think that putting them into circulation wasn't the reason these were made, It was more about making money than making mischief :dodgy:

There was the suggestion that they were smuggled out, then some were put into circulation to make them look legitimate.

[trout]

There was the suggestion that they were smuggled out, then some were put into circulation to make them look legitimate.

That would make sense also I imagine that a third party would be involved, Someone NOT associated with the Mint to distribute and sell these.

[gnome]

Ok what I don't understand is how one person only was caught or fired or whatever from the mint. Supposedly.
Where are the dies located at the mint. ? In a locked room, vault, somebodies bottom draw of their desk, locker room. So access to actually get the obverse dies would mean they had the keys, special access, combination to the lock, a partner to the room. Can just see IT ,now the smoko lady or the cleaner has access, just see them for their keys. "Here you go, love. Give em back to me later. " That's just to get into the room with the dies. Then there's  do you have to sign for the dies. Can anybody go and get the dies or is their special clearence needed, key card, finger printing technology, find a buddy to go with you. Then their is the fitting of the dies, wouldn't you need a bit of knowledge how to fit them or do they fit together like leggo blocks. Then access to get the blanks. Seems to have alot of clearence and access availability for my thinking for just one person only. Lots of questions still.

[Fulvio]

Are the dies used for business strikes essentially the same as those used for MS and Proof strikes

Good question. I would say yes, based on the incused flag 50¢. These dies were intended to produce the coloured flag in the sets, but when that didn't pan out, they replaced them with a flat printed flag and put the die(s) into the general population.

As for spending coins, its a good way to cover your tracks. The coins cost you nothing other than the risk to smuggle them out. You seed a few into the mix, wait for them to surface, then start flogging yours. If I was doing it, I'd start with some I'd beaten up a bit first, then haul out the pristine ones once the dust had settled.

Not sure where TPGs sit. Do they even HAVE a 'sport' category? I would imagine they'd just be looking at the coin to determine if its real, not its provenance.

What I DO think would help is for the mints to declare that these are not legitimate. In much the same way that 'borrowing' real printing plates to make your own notes doesn't legitimise them, neither does this.

Where are the dies located at the mint

There is a large room adjacent to the presses on the north side, and the dies are basically sitting there. I'll see if I can find the piccies in my archives, or anything online.

There's nothing unusual about swapping dies. Its routine. What wouldn't be routine is going across the hall to get to the proof presses. But depending on time of day and who was involved, its not impossible.

As for the one girl who we know got caught, we don't know there weren't others. They made a big fuss about the bloke who was taking $2 coins out in his boots cos of the high value of the coins and how long he got away with it (plus the fact he was caught by the public, not the mint), but a few bucks worth of shrapnel isn't something they'd likely make public. Some intensive research should turn up court records though.

[trout]

What I DO think would help is for the mints to declare that these are not legitimate. In much the same way that 'borrowing' real printing plates to make your own notes doesn't legitimise them, neither does this.

Maybe there are people at the Mint that have been or are still involved with these and to De Legitimise these would Not be in their Best interests ?

Not sure where TPGs sit. Do they even HAVE a 'sport' category? I would imagine they'd just be looking at the coin to determine if its real, not its provenance.

As these are obviously NOT genuine errors the honest and right thing to do would be to "Boddybag" them and Not encapsulate them at all.
The TPG's can and do still charge for the grading fee for a boddybagged coin so they wouldn't be out of pocket and it would be a great help in stemming the flow of these things onto the market.

[gnome]

Thanks Fulvio, would be great to see some pics. Appreciate it.

[Hercules]

As for spending coins, its a good way to cover your tracks. The coins cost you nothing other than the risk to smuggle them out. You seed a few into the mix, wait for them to surface, then start flogging yours. If I was doing it, I'd start with some I'd beaten up a bit first, then haul out the pristine ones once the dust had settled.

If I were doing it, I'd deposit them all at a big, inner-city bank, amongst a whole heap of other 5c coins, in the hope that no one would check them individually, and in the hope that no one would be able to track me down once they discovered them. If you spend them individually, you're bound to get caught, but if you put them in a bag amongst hundreds or thousands of others, no one will ever notice until they start turning up in security rolls. Then Armaguard will get blamed instead of you.

[nealeffendi]

Ross confirmed they're sports, though he didn't go into detail.

That's Good enough for Me. :good:
The thing that really gets my goat up is that the TPG's are grading these things and calling them genuine errors when they are most certainly aware that they are Mint Sport and NOT a genuine error coin.
Maybe IF they were to attribute them correctly as "Mint Sport" then they wouldn't be so popular and the "Bum Smugglers" at RAM wouldn't have such a ready market for their ill gotten products.

Wasn't it a female who was caught? Without spelling it out female smugglers have another option besides their bum.

[Hercules]

Maybe IF they were to attribute them correctly as "Mint Sport" then they wouldn't be so popular and the "Bum Smugglers" at RAM wouldn't have such a ready market for their ill gotten products.

Wasn't it a female who was caught? Without spelling it out female smugglers have another option besides their bum.

Personally, I wouldn't want a coin that had been in someone's bum. It grosses me out just thinking about it.

[Fulvio]

Wasn't it a female who was caught?

Yes, and yes, and I would presume a plastic bag was involved. If only to protect the coins.

[Hercules]

Wasn't it a female who was caught?

Yes, and yes, and I would presume a plastic bag was involved. If only to protect the coins.

I sure hope you're right. Coins are dirty enough without people sticking them where the light don't shine.

[trout]

I sure hope you're right. Coins are dirty enough without people sticking them where the light don't shine.

I think that is exactly where these types of "coins" belong :angel: