2007 Double Headed 5c

[drakesterling]

As an aside, PCGS' view is that if the coins are struck with original dies - legally or otherwise - then PCGS will grade them.

There is at least two precedents that I can think of from the top of my mind:
1) The "restrike" 1900 South African Pond. This restrike was struck in Europe from original dies stolen from Pretoria. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/33118596
2) The "restrikes" from the Indian mints, one of which is the 1960s restrikes of the Bombay penny and halfpenny. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/29225076

Both were struck illegally.

Whether the double-header 5C was made illegally or by accident, it'll join the long list of coins with mysterious origins.

Eric

[trout]

That IS interesting Eric, I had No idea that there were Australian pre decimal restrikes made.
I have an Indian 8 Anna coin that is a restrike, Do you know where this was struck ?

[nealeffendi]

As an aside, PCGS' view is that if the coins are struck with original dies - legally or otherwise - then PCGS will grade them.

There is at least two precedents that I can think of from the top of my mind:
1) The "restrike" 1900 South African Pond. This restrike was struck in Europe from original dies stolen from Pretoria. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/33118596
2) The "restrikes" from the Indian mints, one of which is the 1960s restrikes of the Bombay penny and halfpenny. Here's an example: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/29225076

Both were struck illegally.

Whether the double-header 5C was made illegally or by accident, it'll join the long list of coins with mysterious origins.

Eric

Were the Bombay restrikes struck illegally or just not authorized by Australia? The Indian mint officials would have been acting under Indian laws and not ours and the problem was that our officials only knew about the restrikes after the fact and complained then that Australia didn't like what India was doing. Had they been illegally struck then wouldn't we have asked for more than just them stopping but asked them to pass on customers names so the counterfeits could be seized.

[Fulvio]

Were the Bombay restrikes struck illegally or just not authorized by Australia?

Same thing.

The issue with counterfeiting is that it debases the currency, by adding money into the system which was never issued. Whether its a backyard job or the actions of a foreign government, the result is the same, and that's why its a crime.

The physical form itself is somewhat irrelevant to the crime, other than as evidence of it.

[nealeffendi]

Were the Bombay restrikes struck illegally or just not authorized by Australia?

Same thing.

The issue with counterfeiting is that it debases the currency, by adding money into the system which was never issued. Whether its a backyard job or the actions of a foreign government, the result is the same, and that's why its a crime.

The physical form itself is somewhat irrelevant to the crime, other than as evidence of it.

Not the same thing at all. What the Indians did was legal. May as well say the Maria Theresa restrikes are illegal because the Hapsburg empire has not approved them or the proof and specimen strikes  of our pre decimals by London mint are illegal if London sold them or sent them to anybody but our government.

[Fulvio]

Not the same thing at all. What the Indians did was legal.

How is unauthorised minting of another nation's currency in any way legal?

This is no different than say Russia printing US dollars. Its counterfeiting.
http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/products/1942-bombay-proof-halfpenny

Oh look, it seems the government agrees with me:

"The Australian government of the day did not look favourably upon the unauthorised striking of what was then still legal tender, and promptly ensured that the striking of Australian coins was discontinued and the dies returned to Australia."

[nealeffendi]

Not the same thing at all. What the Indians did was legal.

How is unauthorised minting of another nation's currency in any way legal?

This is no different than say Russia printing US dollars. Its counterfeiting.

http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/products/1942-bombay-proof-halfpenny

Oh look, it seems the government agrees with me:

"The Australian government of the day did not look favourably upon the unauthorised striking of what was then still legal tender, and promptly ensured that the striking of Australian coins was discontinued and the dies returned to Australia."

Proves my point. The Indian government had authorized their mint to restrike coins from 1947 on for which the Indian mints had legal possession of. The Australians might not of authorized it and were not happy about it. All they could do was complain and ask for the dies back and the Indians obliged. I'm not sure if anybody knows if the dies were on loan to India in 1942-43 or if India legally owned the dies at that date or after a period of time. After all they were no different to abandoned property in a lost property office whose title is transferred after a certain time.

[trout]

What is peculiar is that after a few years all of a sudden all the double headers/tails coins miraculously show up all at pretty much the same time.
Especially when these are manufactured errors :dodgy:

[drakesterling]

That IS interesting Eric, I had No idea that there were Australian pre decimal restrikes made.
I have an Indian 8 Anna coin that is a restrike, Do you know where this was struck ?

In those days, the Indians restruck anything they had dies for, including their own coins, but also coins from British colonies that India had previously struck circulation coins for. Presumably, the Indian restrikes of Indian coins (like your one) would be considered official restrikes, but the restrikes from other countries and colonies were unauthorised. (Whether they were illegal or not, I'll leave it up to you fellahs to work out!)

Eric

[trout]

So mine is an "Official" Dodgy coin then :laugh2:
I can't remember what I paid heritage for this coin but it wasn't cheap But after getting stung with 2 counterfeits which weren't cheap either I decided to go the pre slabbed option.
By the time I got the results back from PCGS I had missed the timeframe to be able to return the counterfeits and get my money back from eBay :dash1:
Getting back to the original subject of these double headed coins and others of the same ilk.
I struggle to think why any sane collector would be willing to part with their hard earned money for these obviously manufactured "errors" which in my opinion are NO better than all the other "Backyard" errors being sold.
There is no way known that these are genuine errors and I think it is totally irresponsible for PCGS or NGC to encapsulate these illegal coins.
What's next backyard vice jobs in slabs ? :dash1:

[Cockatoo Coins]

Ive sent off 16 of the 2007 Double obverse 5c to PCGS in the past few months with more coming, all have seen circulation to some degree and all originate within one distribution area. There is a group of guys systematically sorting through all the 5c in that district then once sorted taking them outside that distribution area and depost them. The vast amounts of 5c they have gone through is mind boggling but does explain the sudden increase in availability of this error, previous to the knowledge of the distribution centre responsible only a small handful of people were searching and finding them. They are being found in areas outside this distribution centre aswell however frequencies are so low they look to be escapees of sorts.

[trout]

So you are saying that 10 years after these were made that all of a sudden they have been "Discovered" But only in one small area and only by a handful of people.
Do you realise just how unbelievable that all sounds? :dodgy:

[Hercules]

I struggle to think why any sane collector would be willing to part with their hard earned money for these obviously manufactured "errors" which in my opinion are NO better than all the other "Backyard" errors being sold.

I think the real attraction of these coins is that they guarantee you'll always win coin tosses. If I were using this in a cricket match, I'd always choose heads.

So you are saying that 10 years after these were made that all of a sudden they have been "Discovered" But only in one small area and only by a handful of people.
Do you realise just how unbelievable that all sounds? :dodgy:

The thread on CCF dates back to 2009. Hence, these coins have been in circulation for at least 8 years.

[Ozcoins]

I'm with Trout on this.  It all looks pretty fishy so far.

Is there any evidence of the huge noodling effort?

I think I mentioned in the CCF thread on these, about the posters who joined up just to post about these coins.  Looked a bit like a marketing campaign to me.

[Hercules]

I guess the real question is why they haven't dispersed all over the country by now. I found my $1/10c mule in Canberra in 2009 - over 3000km from where it was released back in 2000. If this is a genuine error that was placed in circulation, then why are they still only being found in the Illawarra region almost ten years after they were made? The mules certainly didn't remain in Perth for that length of time, and they had the Nullarbor to contend with. :dontknow: