Decimal Upsets

[Nevol]

My OP has been updated. 2 additions noted thus. Both 20c Coins.

The 2001 20c CoF SA now confirmed as gnome's coin, see link below Post #901 & Pics at post #907. I estimate it to be approx 20°

:https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=303&pid=110143&highlight=a+first+for+me#pid110143

[JeffH]

Here is my best 2001 20¢ upset find.

[Unicorn]

Very nice Jeff! Another very elusive one! :good:

[Nevol]

Sweet! :yahoo:

[Pedro]

Very nice Jeff. :good:  

Pedro

[fred lever]

Nevol's thread is interesting, especially with the 20 cent pieces.
 I checked my database of varieties and found a bunch of 20c coins listed but  they are all after 1999.
Either I am dead unlucky and never noticed or there were not that many pree 2000.
Back in 2007 I conned myself by buying an "upset" 20c on ebay, conned because it was not upset but just shown in a 2x2 with the pointy bit of the queens bust at 6 oclock and so the reverse then is tilted at about 30deg going by the 20C writing and the rest of the image. Confused I then trawled through many 20 cent pieces and found some, where, if you placed her Majs bust pointy bit down the reverse side was bolt up right! Were they upset?
You would think even in those days the dies would be indexed to seconds and NO upsets possible. So, I contacted the Mint (in 2007) and asked them to clear the matter up: HOW can you tell what the correct orientation of the Queen is, so we can judge if a coin is upset? A very sensible and straightforward question. I mentioned the reverse side is easy to judge as the design has elements in it that can be used as a reference EG the 20. The obverse from 2000 onwards is a bit tricky  as none of the elements of the design are quite symmetrical. As an engineer I thought they would have indexing points on their punches and dies like I had when pressing things and could simply provide a reference point for an ignorant coin collector like me to use.
The answer I received was a non answer, could not say due to official secrets act and so on!
That made me write an article about it CAB oct 2007. Surely they were not just inserting the tools into the presses BY EYE? Speculation: maybe that's why most of the pre 2000 20c pieces were in line because the previous busts on the obverse had a clearly defined "top and bottom" just like the reverse has. Post 1999 the obverse is very hard to judge and some press guys just put the pointy bit at the bottom while others read the pressing instructions and alined "correctly" (queens nose and L of Australia at about 3 oclock).
I just never bothered to find out if there were Press instructions or indexing points on the tools.
Maybe someone  in the forum worked at the Mint on the presses and could clear that point up?
Fred.

[Mister T]

Maybe have a look at the images on the RAM website and see if they're consistent? I assume they're from whatever is fed into the software that is used for die production these days.

[fred lever]

Hi  Mr T, back then I went through 100's of images from lots of sources including the RAM and found the majority of them portrayed the side of coins in a position that made sense in a photographic way, that is "looked right".
That pretty much worked for pre 2000 coins but did not make quite fit for later coins around 2000 2002 with all the small variations where it seemed that the mint could not make up its mind. That led to me asking the  simple question of the RAM and then me retiring in confusion when given a stupid answer.
The problem is the original beautiful designs always had elements in them that provided a horizontal and vertical reference like the denomination number on the reverse or the symmetrical lettering on the obverse. The latest iteration of the obverse has Her Majesty jammed in where she fits with an assymetrical larger font. When you casually look at our current 20c pieces  is the pointy bit of the Mam's  bust supposed to be at 6 oclock, or, is Mam's nose supposed to be at 3 oclock?
Now get a bunch of 20 cent pieces of different dates from 2000, put them into 2 x 2's with the reverse alined  by setting the "20" nice and square. Now flip them over and check out how many angles the Queen can be at. Hey look a whole bunch of upsets!!!!
Hence me doing the article and asking the question.
Not a big deal in the scheme of things, I just retired to the home for the Terminally Confused and forgot about it.
Fred.

[Nevol]

I had quite a few 2001 20c put aside somewhere that I kept as I thought they may have been slightly upset, but I'm not sure just where they are at present, or even if I kept them.  :s

I'll see if I can turn them up and maybe get some piccies if any of them look interesting enough.

[Nevol]

I relocated 23 x 2001 P'pus and 1 x 2001 Cent of Fed SA 20c that I had put aside, marked as possible upsets.. 
I know why I didn't finish what I wanted to do with them, as it's doing my head in. :s

I have Id'd 2 P'pus that I'm fairly certain are slightly upset, plus the SA Cent of Fed also slightly upset.

The degree of upset is only about 15-20° which may be within the tolerance.

Not too sure if I'll do any more work on them, as most of them are the same.

Piccies will come once I've finished with the cropping etc.

[JeffH]

Somewhere (probably CCF) I read that tolerance is ±5º. I have seen plenty very slight -within that range- upsets of 2001 20¢. But from Fred's remarks above maybe tolerance should be considered to be much broader.

[Mister T]

Hi  Mr T, back then I went through 100's of images from lots of sources including the RAM and found the majority of them portrayed the side of coins in a position that made sense in a photographic way, that is "looked right".
That pretty much worked for pre 2000 coins but did not make quite fit for later coins around 2000 2002 with all the small variations where it seemed that the mint could not make up its mind. That led to me asking the  simple question of the RAM and then me retiring in confusion when given a stupid answer.
The problem is the original beautiful designs always had elements in them that provided a horizontal and vertical reference like the denomination number on the reverse or the symmetrical lettering on the obverse. The latest iteration of the obverse has Her Majesty jammed in where she fits with an assymetrical larger font. When you casually look at our current 20c pieces  is the pointy bit of the Mam's  bust supposed to be at 6 oclock, or, is Mam's nose supposed to be at 3 oclock?
Now get a bunch of 20 cent pieces of different dates from 2000, put them into 2 x 2's with the reverse alined  by setting the "20" nice and square. Now flip them over and check out how many angles the Queen can be at. Hey look a whole bunch of upsets!!!!
Hence me doing the article and asking the question.
Not a big deal in the scheme of things, I just retired to the home for the Terminally Confused and forgot about it.
Fred.

Actually there's no variation on a 50c piece - that should tell you the right orientation.

[fred lever]

Mr T, now there's a sensible  suggestion. I'll grab some 50's and 20's and do a bit of investigating.
Fred.

[JeffH]

Fred, I was thinking along the same lines. Are these pictures any help?

[fred lever]

Hi Jeff yep thanks, the  coins of interest were mainly the 20 cent  like the 1999 50 , your last image.
Just starting with that iteration of Her Maj, I looked at a bunch of denominations and the image file used appears to be the same.
And why not, as they just expand or contract the image when image milling dies, to suit the ID of the die. So, can I be simplistic and use Mam's nose as our visual ref point.  In the IRB image Mam's nose ALWAYS points at the L all coins all sizes.
Another ref point is the pointy bit of Mam's neck. In your photo lets say the pointy bit is at 5:45 as the clock goes.
Using the Mr T theory I grabbed some  50c pieces popped them into 2x 2 with the reverse so the vertical axis goes down through the spear shape thing at the top and smack between the "50" at the bottom. Then they all have Mam's pointy bit on the obverse at about 5:45.  So that gave me a "standard reference point" picture just like the pix above.
 I have 20 cent pieces where Mam's nose is on the horizontal line  and the pointy bit at 5:30,  all the way to where Mam's nose  points downward and the pointy bit is at  6 oclock.
No wonder I retired to the home for the Terminally Confused.
In the olden days we "press instructions" at the machine for all sorts of jobs telling how to aline or index the various punch or die pieces. How they do it now I don't know. As the images are in CAD I guess the press instructions may be part of that and some HAL robot puts the punches and dies in, I don't know, by some ref mark? From what happened around year 2000 something lost the plot and the dies were alined within that 30 minute range we see.
The whole subject  needs viewing hundreds if not thousands of coins and analysis or,  someone who actually worked on the presses at the mint telling us how they did it instead of me just guessing!
Fred.