Changes to PCGS Set Registry Australian Penny Sets

[nealeffendi]

Yes they should have a basic list and then a separate side list

:i_agree: The set is called:

Australian Pennies Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes (1911-1964)

http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/composite.aspx?c=2278

There are currently 10 Australian Commonwealth penny sets. The varieties should be in a separate set.

Worse yet it was 2 different dies

Is that two different 1925 penny Brokeback N dies?

Yes, there is one variety with a thin leg and another variety with a spur. I'm not an expert on that year so conceivably it is either 2 different dies or the same die after alteration by a die clash. I have a couple of the spurs but don't have the thin leg to do a proper comparison.

[r9453]

Is that two different 1925 penny Brokeback N dies?

Yes, there is one variety with a thin leg and another variety with a spur. I'm not an expert on that year so conceivably it is either 2 different dies or the same die after alteration by a die clash. I have a couple of the spurs but don't have the thin leg to do a proper comparison.

The 1925 penny deserves its own thread. It looks to me that the "thin leg" occurs in the same place as the "broken N" as if the die has gradually filled over time.

[autocoupler]

Have been looking at the number of listed major penny varieties PCGS has included in their registry sets, particularly the host of new additions over the past year or so. Apparently PCGS use Renniks as their reference, so good on them for publishing a catalogue that is inclusive of all of Australia's scarcest and most important coins.

The only issue I have with the Renniks variety catalogue is that they have buried these important coins within endless listings of die cracks and cuds etc. Surely they are able to format this great resource in a way that sets our major varieties apart from the myriad of die damage varieties, and at the same time include a description of how and why some of these coins came to be. New entrants to the hobby must find the current layout difficult when attempting to sort the wheat from the chaff.

What I'm leading to is to highlight the 1956Y. (P) penny with Melbourne obverse. This coin is not included in any of the PCGS registry lists as a major variety, but does exist in their population report. In my opinion it's fairly certain that most Aussie variety collectors would view this coin as a must have and certainly a major variety. It's existence or the manner in which it came to be is exactly the same as the 1955Y. (P) penny with  Perth obverse which is rightly included in the registry sets as a major variety.

At the risk of sending everyone to sleep, set out below is my take (happy to be corrected) on how and why the scarcer varieties of the 1955Y. and 1956Y. penny mintages came to be, and IMO is how Renniks for example, could aid all collectors, particularly new entrants to the hobby, when formatting a stand alone list of major varieties that is inclusive of relevant historical information for all such coins.

In 1955 the intended obverse die for all pennies minted at the Perth Mint for that year was what is known as the #8 obverse die supplied by the Melbourne Mint. At some later point in time, it was decided the obverse die for the following year would be manufactured in Perth instead of being supplied from Melbourne, this die would become known as the #9 obverse. Towards the end of the mintage run for 1955Y. (P) pennies, this new die somehow made its way onto the presses and was responsible for a small number of 1955Y. (P) pennies displaying the #9 obverse.

Following on from this, early in the 1956Y. (P)  penny production run with all coins now intended to display the new #9 obverse, somehow again, the older #8 Melbourne supplied obverse die from the previous year found its way onto the presses for a short time resulting in a small mintage of Perth pennies displaying the #8 Melbourne obverse.

For an eventual list of maybe 40 ish coins, I don't see this as an unrealistic expectation or difficult task, there are some years that would require extended information to unveil certain mysteries, other years would require much less.

[r9453]

My favourite topic, no risk of me nodding off since I just woke up, fresh as a daisy. I get the feeling we have covered this before in different threads with contributions from nealeffendi and autocoupler etc. however it won't hurt to collate what we have so far and put it all down in one place. Personally I would not wait for Renniks to come on board, if there are indeed only 40 - 50 examples then why not simply list them here?

PCGS already have about 20 included in the registry set so the job is half done. I have that list on my PC and I will add later when I boot it up.

Meanwhile in the case of the 1955 and 1956 Perth obverses, I wonder if it was a mixup. My theory is that they would never let a useful die go to waste, so a planned change of dies would not take place until the old dies were all used up which could result in some unintended combinations.



Link to the PCGS penny set composition:

http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/setcomposition.aspx?c=2278

My list of the varieties included in the penny set:

1   _1920o//o   Double Dot   
2   _1920L//o   Dot Below - London Obverse   
3   _1920C/o/   Dot Above Bottom Scroll - Calcutta Obverse   
4   _1920o//   Dot Above Top Scroll   
5   _1921L   London Obverse   
6   _1922C   Calcutta Obverse   [P22M.2B]
7   _1924C   Calcutta Obverse   
8   _1925N   Broken N   
9   _1927C   Calcutta Obverse   
10   _1929C   Calcutta Obverse   [P29M.2A]
11   _1931LD1   Dropped 1 - London Obverse   
12   _1931CD1   Dropped 1 - Calcutta Obverse   
13   _1931C   Calcutta Obverse   
14   _1933/2   Over-date   
15   _1952AM   Type D "Melbourne" Reverse (Perth A dot) [P52P.5D]
16   _1953L5D3   Long 5, Different 3   
17   _1955Y   Perth Obverse

[autocoupler]

Meanwhile in the case of the 1955 and 1956 Perth obverses, I wonder if it was a mixup. My theory is that they would never let a useful die go to waste, so a planned change of dies would not take place until the old dies were all used up which could result in some unintended combinations.

:agreed: yes indeed, it could be as simple and logical as that.

Thinking further about major varieties and what may constitute a major variety, it becomes apparent that any list may vary depending on the priority of the individual. Anyhow, whichever that is, I reckon it should be accompanied by suitable identifying information. Definitely something to work on.

[Unicorn]

This thread is an absolute credit to all the posters. I'm finding it really useful at the moment as I'm trying to get some of my pennies sorted to "hopefully" pay some bills. Top stuff & thanks heaps! :good:

[autocoupler]

Thanks uni. For my part at least, I'm just referring to info that has been sourced and supplied by others in the hobby. To be perfectly honest, the info is already out there, but not all in the one place as an all encompassing reference as it so easily could be in my opinion.

[r9453]

Thinking further about major varieties and what may constitute a major variety, it becomes apparent that any list may vary depending on the priority of the individual. Anyhow, whichever that is, I reckon it should be accompanied by suitable identifying information. Definitely something to work on.

Could you expand a little on what you mean by "suitable identifying information". For instance would a spreadsheet format with (possibly) additional columns to my list be the go or would the format be more like an essay for each type of coin (maybe both).

[autocoupler]

For instance would a spreadsheet format with (possibly) additional columns to my list be the go or would the format be more like an essay for each type of coin (maybe both).

Maybe a bit of both as you suggested. For some entries I think coded columns would suffice, but for others, provision for  extended description would be required. IMO the trick would be in finding a way of doing this without the document having large void areas, and the best way may be the simplest, just by entering extra detail across the page directly below the line and before the next entry.

[frenc11]

it has taken a long time but the penny set looks about  right now

[autocoupler]

it has taken a long time but the penny set looks about  right now

Yes, I think the increased numbers of important Aussie coins finding their way onto the PCGS registry over the past year is a shot in the arm for this form of collecting. Unfortunately the one glaring omission as I see it is the 1956Y. (P) Penny with Melbourne obverse. Can't be too critical though, hopefully time will tell.

[Mister T]

The only issue I have with the Renniks variety catalogue is that they have buried these important coins within endless listings of die cracks and cuds etc.

Agreed.

[robbiegal]

Then go to Lever he only has the main die varieties listed. Maybe the odd dot like the 1937 crown.

[r9453]

Then go to Lever he only has the main die varieties listed. Maybe the odd dot like the 1937 crown.

I have a copy of Fred's book in front of me. He has five pages devoted to pennies with about 30 - 40 coins on each page.

EDIT: In the accompanying CD there is a PDF called "04 First listing of Penny varieties 2005" which lists 161 coins.

[nealeffendi]

it has taken a long time but the penny set looks about  right now

Yes, I think the increased numbers of important Aussie coins finding their way onto the PCGS registry over the past year is a shot in the arm for this form of collecting. Unfortunately the one glaring omission as I see it is the 1956Y. (P) Penny with Melbourne obverse. Can't be too critical though, hopefully time will tell.

What about the 1930 English? It is in the population report but not in the registry. Same with the '53 large denticle florin, the 1926 serif sixpence and the 1916 halfpenny mule. Also nothing for the 1922 wide date pennies or the '46 big 6 florin and what about the date variety pennies of 1955-57?