Recognition of important varieties TPG's

[autocoupler]

Was just reading an earlier post regarding Set Composition.

I think one glaring error in the Penny Set Registry is where the scarce 1920 Dot Over Top Scroll variety is worth 4 points, compared to the common 1920 Dot Over Bottom Scroll Indian Obverse which is worth 8 points. 

Something very wrong there.

[nealeffendi]

hi Auto, lots of things wrong with the points. 1920 double dot is 6 points, same as 1931 dropped 1 Indian and the 1919 double dot. Now I have an album full of 1920 double dots but wished I had a handful of the drop 1 Indians or a page of the 1919s.
Florins are just as bad, the 34/35 Centennial rates a 6 yet in MS65 it can be had for about $1000, try buying almost any Geo VI non S mintmark or 1946-47 in MS65 and they cost more than a Centenary in MS66 yet only get half the points.
Plus the whole point system is biased in favour of those who complete sets and not on the overall quality of the set. Somebody with a bunch of lower grades (but complete set) will outrank another set that is incomplete but nearly all gem (perhaps they are waiting to find the right coins which can be hard when assembling a gem set). For example in the shillings there is a complete set that rates higher than the next one ( 49.13 to 40.60) as it is 100% complete compared to 77.55% complete but the complete set averages 64.21 compared to 49.13. Now the complete set is virtually made up of Everyman coins (circulated) in Geo V and average MS for the rest, a nice collection and I'm sure its owner is happy to remain within his budget. but the whole set is probably worth $2000 yet most GeoV shillings costs more than that if you want a gem example. So it kind of makes the point system a let down if you are a high grade set (unless you can get the almost impossible to reach number 1 position).

[autocoupler]

You make some good points Neal.

I had this idea where another way of assessing a partially completed set was to look at the given Set Rating as a percentage of Set completion.
For example, where a Set rating is given as 34, and the Set completion is 60%, when applied as a percentage the alternate Set rating is 56.66. Obviously, if the top of the pops had a Set rating of say 65 and the Set completion was 100%, the alternate Set rating wouldn't change.  

My theory was that those who decided to build a set by seeking out some of the harder examples in higher grade first, the given rating of the partially completed set didn't accurately reflect the quality of coins in the Set or the effort and commitment of meager funds, particularly when their pockets may not be as deep as others. 

I'm not suggesting this method should replace the way Set ratings are now calculated, instead, as an additional rating which would fluctuate (probably downwards) as the Set was progressively added to. I did think it would create much interest for a lot more collectors.

Anyhow, I submitted my idea to PCGS, but no interest.

[fred lever]

Hi Guys, still alive and will get back to writing about coins sooner or later.
I'm buried in catching up with 1920's to 1960's valve radios and a lot of theory behind magnetics, electrics and allied subjects leading into Transistors , integrated circuits.
Its all stuff I should have worked on 50 years ago and gained a better understanding but I was immersed in electronics as a job and making a crust.
Doing a lot of practical work in building equipment surrounding radios at the moment.
Of course all that has zip to do with coins, but suits me better at the present as I can control the experiments and move from one subject to the next without any pressure from "experts".

I am afraid coins are quite limited in the scope of experimenting with!
If I set up a press and start knocking 1930's penny coins out and seeing how things were made, the engineering behind it, mettalurgy etc,  all hell will be let loose.
I can make a 1930's replica radio however and have that published in a major electronics magazine ( Silicon Chip) with no problem and no idiots running around screaming fake.
Just interested in how i managed to make an ancient bit of gear with what is available nowadays and the theories behind the electronics of the time.


Basil I think you have touched on the precariousness of the hobby, the guys who were the backbone of the buisness, dealers collectors  are nearly all dead and buried.
A lot of the scarcity and rarity that was prevelant in the 1960's to 2000's was pretty much manufactured by the rigidity of the catalogue system.
If you have a rigid system like that nothing moves forward so here we are 20 years later now collecting shiny tokens..
Have you got, (gasp)  the latest 1 dollar with a red circle (or something)...good grief..........................
Bit like collecting tulips.
Look at the cats now and be quick cos they (or it) may not exist much longer.
Absolutely chock full of shiny tokens and shirt buttons.
That mint just keeps on making more and more varieties of tokens feeding a diminishing market!
Wonderful how you can create a market selling nothing new.

Maybe this is the low point of a cycle and coin collecting will boom again but somehow I dont think so.
My grandkids are not interested in any way with music, coins, stamps, cars all  the things that I have a workshop full of and are so last century.
How can kids not be interested in guitars and loud cars? Mine are not.
I have stuff that should be in a museum, but so do 1000's of other old guys and no museum wants stuff.
I see stuff from the late 1800's and early 1900's just tossed in the dumper bin, no interest.
Stuff that 30 years ago could have been auctioned and put in collections.
Those collections are now shut down, not viable to be run as museums so just wind up as land fill.

Now you can tell me I'm wrong!

Fred.

[gweidion]

You are unfortunately not wrong. Those great "old" things that no one has any interest in currently will be of interest again in probably 50 years when the youngsters say I remember throwing something like that of grandads into the tip.
Too late for you though.

And RAM is doing what Australia Post did in the late 80s and early 90s and probably still does. Flooding the market with issue after issue to soak up as much money from we suckers as they can. Probably before they ban the use of money entirely.

[nealeffendi]

Your right Fred about old stuff being just tossed out. Decade ago worked at a recycling plant. Old photo albums (with pictures of soldiers from both wars), stamp albums, royal visit (1954) souvenir magazines, a WW1 38mm brass shell casing (WW1 anti tank shell fired by a rifle). jewelry boxes with between the wars costume jewelry etc. Kept a lot of it (so I'm a bowerbird) but so much I couldn't. Obviously lots just tossed out by nursing home staff or those clearing deceased estates and just interested in selling the home.

[Basilstate]

Hi Guys, still alive and will get back to writing about coins sooner or later.

Good to hear Fred,Covid still rampant up here on the North Coast of NSW.


Basil I think you have touched on the precariousness of the hobby, the guys who were the backbone of the business, dealers collectors  are nearly all dead and buried.
A lot of the scarcity and rarity that was prevelant in the 1960's to 2000's was pretty much manufactured by the rigidity of the catalogue system.
Stuff that 30 years ago could have been auctioned and put in collections.
Those collections are now shut down, not viable to be run as museums so just wind up as land fill.
Fred.

Yes Fred,i've been posting on the US Forum on how Error/Variety collecting of Oz. pre-dec. has declined to the point you have to give them away on Ebay,very little interest with the new breed of collectors sucked into the Mints Decimal barrage of Coin releases.
Anyway,everything goes in cycles so interest in pre-Dec collecting may take off again.

[ttkoo]

Anyway, everything goes in cycles so interest in pre-Dec collecting may take off again.

 

True, 
'Everything old is new again'  quoted by many, but I may attribute to Jonathon Swift coz Dr. Google told me, so it must be correct

[autocoupler]

Giving this thread a bump. I see PCGS has added five coins to their comprehensive penny set, making the total number of coins now required 102. Some may be difficult to find!

1919 DDO and DDR
1922 DDO
1952A. with English reverse DDO
1956Y. with Perth obverse DDR

[Basilstate]

Thanks Auto.

[pra666]

These are all extremely minor varieties not in keeping the nature of the set.
In protest I removed my emu666 set.

[autocoupler]

I get what you're saying. I already did have one example so happy to blaze on in quest of the rest if realistically achievable. The 1922 penny DDO in particular is a worry with just one recorded and no image to go by so, what is the key identifier? Same can be said for the 1956Y. DDR. I remember echidna posting images of a 22 in the past but are now taken down.

One would think a reasonable number of a particular variety must be registered to warrant inclusion, something at least like 8 to 10 examples otherwise they may as well include the 1930 English obverse penny as well. 

I remember seeing a nice 1921 Indian obverse penny at auction which displayed clear DDO. Must be many other DDO's and R's out there.

Penny 1921 mostly red choice Unc, rarely seen in this grade/Australian Predecimal Coins | Downies Collectables

[Mister T]

Yeah doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of the variety set.