1933 Overdate Shilling

[fred lever]

Hi Basil, yes I always like to stir the pot a bit about definitions.
I also point out if collectors keep defining the boundaries of the hobby by continually referring to 50 year old catalogs as all there is known, the hobby will stagnate, which it has.
The hobby is only going to stay alive by researching and opening up new avenues of interest.

However back to the main point of my article on the 34 shilling.
Your group should be able to do a much more extensive job on listing the different appearances of the 34 date hubbing.
You guys have access to far more coins than I do.
Perhaps you could do this using a similar method as I outlined in the article?
Define each date variation by a letter system and that would give a listing that can be expanded to a list of the dies used.
Please comment on the article by all means!

Fred.

[Basilstate]

Interesting article Basilstate, learnt a new word; "Galvano". Were galvanos used in any stage either here or in London for producing any of our pre decimals? They seem to be a sort of electrotype used in conjunction with the pantograph to make masters.

I don't know Neal,i have heard the term before in reference to preparing Dies but how/where/why they were used,no idea. I try to avoid delving into Mint processes as the proof/facts/evidence to what they were up to,in Melb & Sydney at least, is just not there.
I will have to find the article i originaly referred to,American writer but went into great detail on Overdated Coins including Aust. & UK Mints egs.Interesting that he said US Mint Staff were trained(i think he meant late 19th ,early 20th Century) in Europe,didn't mention the UK as such,and from this he assumed Mint processes would be similar in the Coin egs. he listed.

https://www.coinbooks.org/v20/esylum_v20n14a12.html 

Hi Basil, yes I always like to stir the pot a bit about definitions.
I also point out if collectors keep defining the boundaries of the hobby by continually referring to 50 year old catalogs as all there is known, the hobby will stagnate, which it has.
The hobby is only going to stay alive by researching and opening up new avenues of interest.

However back to the main point of my article on the 34 shilling.
Your group should be able to do a much more extensive job on listing the different appearances of the 34 date hubbing.
You guys have access to far more coins than I do.
Perhaps you could do this using a similar method as I outlined in the article?
Define each date variation by a letter system and that would give a listing that can be expanded to a list of the dies used.
Please comment on the article by all means!

Fred.

Hi Fred,main thing is its good to see you posting. 

Our little group up here is working like a small Coin Club,swapping Info. on the various Coins we come across without having to use FB but at the end of the day we are just hobby collectors.
As far as the 1934 Shilling goes there was an article on it back in the 1990's,it was around the time the 1920 DOTS got a bit of publicity amongst the Dealers,not sure if CaB was around then.
IIRC the author said the remnants where in the wrong place for a 1933 Shilling and were Hubbing artifacts,or something like that,but he didn't take into account they may have reworked a different Hub/Die to the normal 1933 Shilling. 

I have a 34 Shilling being sent to me that seems to have something under the final 4,i'll have a good look next week when it turns up and post a Pic.here.

[Basilstate]

Interesting Coin on Ebay at the moment but not 'buyable' at A$150.

[nealeffendi]

Had a short shift today so had a chance to re-examine the overdates.
There is more than a single die involved (I have 2) and examining images online it appears that there might be as many as 4 (or possibly 5) different overdates for the shilling. Also at least one reverse was paired with 2 different obverse dies (It is the version with a line/bar through the bottom of the 5 state stars). 
So now that it is settled that there is something more than a random flaw on a working die it now creates a conundrum. Why do only 4 or so working dies have this suggestive line if the line was on the hub? Shouldn't all 18 or so dies have this line? It can't be a case of the hub getting a scratch prior to hubbing the last few dies as that would leave an indented line and not a raised line on the coins from those dies. Could it be a case that it is the remnants of a 2 or 3 that was not fully removed in the dedating/redating process and after the first few overdate dies were hubbed the remnant was seen as problematic and removed? Or was a second hub made? Are there hub markers known for the 1934 shilling and do all 18 or so dies have the same markers or is there evidence of 2 hubs and in particular signs of different hub markers for the overdates compared to the standard.
For the sixpence I've acquired a number of wide date '34s and found 4 different wide date dies, but only one shows the overdating. That only a single die exists would permit critics to claim it is just a suggestive flaw; but as we now have overdates for both the threepence and the shilling it does make it harder to dismiss the sixpence overdate.

[Basilstate]

Yes Neal,its amazing the number of reworked Dies,all denominations in Silver & Copper, turning up out of the Depression Era  Melbourne Mint.Full time job to try and classify them.
Echi has one for sale on Ebay Oz. at the moment,i'll leave it up to him to post Pics.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/115138153679?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

[Basilstate]

I'll throw these Pics up whilst i have the Coin out,bit of a stretch to call it an overdate,bit of a squiggle over the top of the final 4,but interesting.
Just noticed,wrong thread,this is a Florin.

   

[echidna]

Nice pics Basil.

[Basilstate]

Throw these Pics. up for future reference,great eg of an overdated Shilling,these were an accepted overdate in the 1960's,don't know why they are not in the various books these days.






  

[nealeffendi]

Great photos Basil.
At Petersham on Sunday I picked up 2 examples of the overdate. One having the line down the left slope and the other arcing through the top (so 2 different dies).
I have pondered about why does the mark not be in a constant position (which it should be in an overdated hub). The only explanation is that a bunch of dies (1932? 1933? or even 1928?) that had been shelved due to lack of demand (Depression) were finished with a blow from the 1934 dated hub. Now would unfinished dies (perhaps not hardened) even appear in the records of dies on hand? Then they are taken from mothballs, given that blow from the '34 hub, hardened and counted as part of the 18 dies dated 1934? might be clues (or better yet, answers) in the records such as die steel in stock, die steel purchases, die steel taken from storage etc. And if they are examples of overdated dies and not just the oh so common examples of poor dedating-redating that Melbourne did then they deserve to be recognised.
Also got lucky and picked up 3 more overdate sixpences at the show as well as 3 more medium denticle '53 florins. The sixpences were cheap ($4 each) and well worn but the florins were aUnc to ChUnc. Now just need PCGS to recognise these varieties,

[nealeffendi]

Had another chance this arvo to closely look at my 1934 shillings. My 5 overdate examples (2 dies) all show doubling at the top of the 3. My 3 non overdates (3 different dies) show no sign of doubling of the 3. Just another tidbit of evidence that the overdates are different to the standard and indicates that if there was another date on the die then it was in a slightly different position to the 3 on the '34 die. Was the 3 fixed for all 1931-36? Could that remnant be an 8 (1928)?

[Basilstate]

Hi Neal,great to see Petersham up and running again and sounds like you picked up some nice buys.
I try to stay out of the intricate Mint procedures but enjoy reading about them from people that have the time and knowledge to investigate.
One thing is the Mint were certainly putting time and effort into modifying Hubs/Dies during the Depression,we have over 30(now) different half-penny Dies and also waiting for PCGS to acknowledge the 33 Half overdate.
I also hope the pre-Dec. overdated/error varieties make a comeback,not worth listing on Ebay at the moment unless you give them away,long way from when Dealers got $20-30 for average Penny/3d egs. for most of my life.

[Basilstate]

Had another chance this arvo to closely look at my 1934 shillings. My 5 overdate examples (2 dies) all show doubling at the top of the 3. My 3 non overdates (3 different dies) show no sign of doubling of the 3. Just another tidbit of evidence that the overdates are different to the standard and indicates that if there was another date on the die then it was in a slightly different position to the 3 on the '34 die. Was the 3 fixed for all 1931-36? Could that remnant be an 8 (1928)?

Brother found this Coin,nice clear overdate and doubling on the 3,almost to the extent it looks like the 3 was slightly relocated or as you say originally in a different position.

[Unicorn]

Fabulous pics Basil!!! :good:

[Basilstate]

Thanks Uni,the 2nd Pic is a bit blurry,i downloaded the wrong Pic.,i'll fix it up down the track.

I've posted about his before,this overdate shilling variety was ID back in the 1960's,probably before.
I know because i use to look for them as a Schoolkid as i couldn't afford key dates so was always on the lookout for varieties.
What i can't understand is how contemporary Reseachers/Coin experts don't even mention them in their 'factual' history of pre-Dec. Coins.

I had forgotten all about them until Echinda posted here.

[nealeffendi]

There is also a lip inside the loop of the 9. Also another lip on the lower outside of the 9 loop