1920 DOBS English OBV Penny

[Basil]

Probably one for Neale or Fred but does anyone have an opinion on this Coin.
It has the ' normal' groove on the Obv. associated to the Dot Under English but this seems to have a diferent Rev. to my other 1920 English Obv. Coins,about 10,no die crack thru/under A for eg.
It has lots of other markers on the REV,no RHS top scroll,die mark after "A' of Australia,lower leg of 'Penny' not formed properly and numerous die cracks and planchett flaws,i doubt this Die would have been used much longer.
What it does seem to have is a dot above the lower scroll,hard to see on scans but stands out with a Loupe.
Is this definitely a dot under with the markers present or possibly a different Rev. Die used with the standard English Obv. Die.?
Edit...Managed to diffuse the light on my Microscope to get a better Pic.,only feint but the Dot is there,or at least appears to be.
Lot of marks under Lower Scroll but no visible Dot as such but will try and get better Pics.







 

[echidna]

Appears to be a regular dot below London.
Except for the extra dot above ?
Would like to see more pics.

[Basil]

Appears to be a regular dot below London.
Except for the extra dot above ?
Would like to see more pics.

Yeah,just that i haven't seen this Reverse before,i'll try and get better Pics. up this W/end.
As i said the Dot(weak if it is a genuine Dot) stands out with a Loupe but not with the scans when the light hits it.

Edit..just added a couple of extra Pics.,will try and get some better ones.

[nealeffendi]

Could the lamination faults be causing it to look like a dot above as well as obscuring the dot below? Also is there a lump at the base of AL in ALIA? I'll have to check my reference collection when I get back (July?)

[fred lever]

I'll have a whiff of oxygen before looking back through my work on the DOBS 1920, there is so much I wrote on 1920's with Neal's help!

What I SEE from the pix in #1 is a weakly struck coin, but evenly struck in that all the features are there.
The wear across the faces adds to that impression.
There is die filling on the reverse around the scrolls. All of that is pretty usual.
The rims are firm enough so it looks like a Melbourne struck coin and the die was still supporting the strike out there.

The weakness of the strike makes any dot on it a bit shallow and yes there is a hint of a round thing above the bottom scroll about 1/2 way up to the PENNY and off to the right from center. It looks quite large and may just be an artifact. The surface laminations do not help!
I'm thinking the die was a bit on the soft side, the lack of definition about the scrolls may also be the die collapsing at that point.

Now, i'll have a breath and have a wander through my picture gallery to see if i have a brother coin.

Fred.

[Basil]

Could the lamination faults be causing it to look like a dot above as well as obscuring the dot below? Also is there a lump at the base of AL in ALIA? I'll have to check my reference collection when I get back (July?)

Thanks Neal & Fred,i think the lamination faults are due to the Die failing,serious cracks around the lower scroll.
Few more Pics. of ALIA and the A in Commonwealth. 
Probably a false dot but i thought i would test the water as i don't have any other English Obv. Coins with this Rev.
I don't think the Rev. Die would have lasted long after this Coin before being retired.

[Basil]

This is a comparison of 'wealth' of my original Coin and a typical(of my 5 EDUBS) Coin with a groove on Obverse.
The original coin has 3 'dots' under L that is missing on the other groove coins.
It appears to be a different Rev Die to the other Coins with the grooved Obv. although they all have a missing RHS top scroll.
Original Coin on left,typical Obv. Groove Coin on right.  

[Basil]

This is(i think) eg of a Coin Fred was talking about in his CaB article. Die crack thru A with what appears to be a Dot OBS,this one has a clear dot under scroll.I'll throw up some Pics. of the original Coin for future Ref.,die crack thru A on Rev. and Groove on OBV,my Neville Nobody opinion the 'grooved' Obv. was paired with more than 1 Rev.

[fred lever]

Hi Basil, just logged on and will post this without looking at the new pics above.
I re read what o wrote about the 1920 DOBS English and took some notes.:

1920 dot over bottom scroll English, (DOBSE) rated as very rare.

Maybe 20 known?
Possibly struck at Perth with one set of dies only.

Reverse.
Well struck from sharp die.
FBL.
The dot is small and round, positioned to the left of center and half way between scroll and "PENNY" on ALL coins seen.

Obverse.
Well struck from faulty die with chips.
Two die markers that ALL coins seen have .
Fused beads above ITT, die chip.
Die chip, small,  from the top surface of  the "D"  of FD.

Upset.
YES. Dot below King lines up with "9" in date on ALL coins.

See article CAB Feb 2014 Effendi – Lever for arguments explanations and proofs.

Regarding the "artifact" of LARGE dots seen on coins.

Have seen and have pix of similar large dots on 1922 coins. Look above the NN in "penny".

Can email pdf of article to you if needed.

Have to rush, at least the above defines what a genuine coin should have.
Fred.

[Basil]

Thanks Fred,my Coin does not fit that summary,large dot to the right and no fused beads above 'ITT' ,i have the rim groove.
Interesting Rev. thou.,as i said completely different to my other Coins that have the  rim groove,probably wasn't in use for long judging by the die cracks.

[fred lever]

There is a 1920 dot above with English  obverse on eBay at the moment.
Seller lion-stu-1968 lists at $2600.
Unfortunately the obverse has a weak struck rim and the fused pearls and D flaw cannot be proven.
The reverse looks typical with a small dot in the right place.
The coin needs a good cleaning to get the muck and corrosion off.
One would have to examine it in the hand to go further.
No, i am not going to buy it!

Fred.

[Basil]

I'll throw some Pics. up for future Ref.,the 'tooled' and 'not graded' is a bit of a worry.

[autocoupler]

For me it's chalk and cheese. Why would one even consider this coin when there's another available for not much more.

https://www.thepurplepenny.com/product/australia-1920-penny-london-obverse-dot-above-bottom-scroll-pcgs-vf20/

[fred lever]

Re #12.
From the pix above i can see the flaw on the D and there is also a mark like a crack through the R in REX?
Or is that a scratch on the plastic box it is trapped in?
I think the "tooling" may be the scrapes on the rim above the REX on the obverse.
That coin may be a later strike in the die life, the obverse die may have been failing quick smart.
That may explain why Perth minted so few of them.

The high grade one I have handled and my own have a better struck obverse.

Fred.

Edit extra.
Oh, and the purple penny one does not feature the fused beads above ITT?
The rim looks like it was not fully struck.
Possibly PP could add a close up of the area on the web site?
 
One thing that I keep in mind with die flaws is the question:
Did the die start off with that flaw, OR, were some strikes made BEFORE the bit flakes off?
Then a genuine coin may not have the flaw in question.
Always something to think about when getting dogmatic that some variety MUST have the dot or the mark or else it is not genuine.

End edit.
Fred.

[Basil]

For me it's chalk and cheese. Why would one even consider this coin when there's another available for not much more.

https://www.thepurplepenny.com/product/australia-1920-penny-london-obverse-dot-above-bottom-scroll-pcgs-vf20/

Pics. for future Ref....