1930 penny london die - die markers

[Mister T]

I don't think I've seen any discussion of this but was prompted to give it some thought by the listing of https://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/church1930penny

I had a look at the two PCGS has: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38690913 and https://www.pcgs.com/cert/30808335
I could see what looked like little markers on both the obverses and reverses but nothing that seemed to match. Not sure where to see photos of any other examples either - I assume that one of those coins was in the Benchmark Collection in 2014.

[Basil]

Walter(he's been quiet lately) is the resident expert on the 1930 Penny,i'm just a interested observer but i hope you get some replies.

[fred lever]

Hullo Mr T.
I had a look at the English obverse a cpuple of months ago, and updated my series of articles and papers on the 1930 in CAB.
Yes, i would like to find some markers on the english obverse die used on the 1930!
We have narrowed the likely obverse die used as serial #78 and that particular die was involved in pressing 1929, 1930 and 1931 dated coins.
The problem is genuine 1930 english obverse coins are pretty thin on the ground and the two i have examined in some detail dont show any particular die markers that can then be hopefully found in a 1929 or 1931 dated coin and positively ID the die.

Have a read of my update in February 2020 CAB page 22. For further background reading i have a bibliography attached to the  article. The subject is very complex and boils down to understanding what was going on at the Melbourne Mint with hub and die production. Once you get your head around that subject the various die pairings and die varieties become easier to understand.

The thrust of research at the moment by several people including me is recognising coins struck from the known serial # dies and characterising them by die and/or hub markers.
Where there is a gross marker such as the repeating die defects on the reverse 1930 dies, three mentioned in the update article, recognition becomes easy. The obverse dies used were much more stable with few gross defects if any.
This is a subject that you can become immersed in!
Cheers Fred.

[Basil]

Yes,i should have included Fred in the 'resident expert' remark of mine after all the time/research he has done.

Does anyone know what has happened to Walter?,i haven't seen him Post or recieved an Email about his auctions for Months.

[fred lever]

Thanks Basil, yes thousands of hours of research and lots of articles published on the subject, probably do let me just squeeze into the definition of "eggs-spurt" even if just self appointed!!
Anyway, regarding the English Obverse 1930's somebody can correct me here: I have only ever found THREE different examples of this die pair over 20 years of knowing what i was looking at. The SAME coins may keep bobbing up in auction, magazine and textbooks.
If i can give them a name,
PCGS 38690913
PCGS 30808335
The one in Briggs copper book.

Yes it would appear there are about six or more  of them, but when you look at the available images, you realise by the coin marks you are looking at the SAME coins over and over.
Yes, i have handled about 20 of them, BUT, those coins were FAKES usually converted 1936's.
ONE of them i saw about the year 2000 i stupidly dismissed as a fake, because it had an English obverse, how i wish i could have another look at it now!
It may have been one of those brilliant "conversions" done by that guy whose name escapes me at the moment, a master forger.
Anyway i'm rambling.
Fred.

[Unicorn]

Fred, are you thinking David Gee?

[autocoupler]

I think it odd that the three known 1930 English obverse pennies are all in much higher grade than the general run of the mill Indian obverse coins which mostly turn up in gfine or worse. It's as if the English obverses were minted or released later than the Indians  :scratch_one-s_head:

[serenitystan]

Sterling + Currency has a 1930 London PCGS XF 40 for sale with a interesting story about the coin..

[fred lever]

Thanks guys,
1/ UNI, the forger I have forgotten about was not David Gee. Gee was a hustler and a con man and loved gold coins and relieving "coin collectors" and "experts" of big wads of money by knocking out replicas of stamps and coins and banknotes . He is one of my heroes of Australian Numismatics and I wont say any more about that because stamp and banknote people just don't want to know! I don't think he ever contemplated any Penny, not worth the connivance/money/fun ratio. The coppers that did him over only found the dies for spurious gold coins and dodgy 2/-  bits.
The guy I am trying to remember simply made altered 1930 pennies as a hobby for a small cost and was an artist at it. He technically did not know much about coins but was a genius with shop work and altered mostly 1936 dates to 1930. His work is superb. I am killing myself because I have a reference to his work and simply cannot find .

2/ Auto, the Two coins about at the moment with the grading numbers are in good nick because they were put aside pretty early on by collectors that knew what an English Obverse was!  The third coin I can see is a well corroded and cleaned item in about Fine. So, I can isolate TWO coins in VF or better, but you mention THREE? is one of the three you count actually a same coin appearing in different venues twice?
Released later? no, please, all of the 1930 date coins were minted over a two year period and released with the 1931 job order for the Government.

3/Stan, yep that's one of the 2 PCGS coins I can count.

Cheers, Fred.

[autocoupler]

Fred, You are no doubt correct about me seeing the same coin twice. Around the time the Benchmark collection was sold I remember seeing photos of two English obverse 30's and felt at the time they would have graded gVF in the ANDA OZ system. One of the coins I saw is probably the one Stan spoke about but, it's obvious that coin would only grade VF, I must have had a wine or three that night.

I remember reading an article in the last couple of years about that forger you mentioned. It was written by his son who wrote about how his Father came to Australia as a migrant and used his skills to earn a few extra bob, it was all on the up and up and people sort out his services. I'm sure the article was in CAB, and no, I can't remember his name either, wine will do that. I'll try and dig out the mag tomorrow.

[autocoupler]

Hi Fred, Had no luck finding that article but, did stumble onto this pic of a 1930 English obverse penny sold at Nobles auction in 1998. Is it the coin you described as being the " third coin" in your previous post? CAB magazine reported it sold again at Nobles auction in 2008. 

[fred lever]

Hi Auto, yep that's the third example.
I remember it being described as having "some carbon spots".
I would say its been cleaned with brasso and shined up to get the green spots off. Those are pits marks.
Anyway, its is excruciatingly rare no matter what condition it is in.
Fred.

[Basil]

Coin on Ebay(USA) that is a worry,last 2 numbers are iffy but the fakes are getting better...Thoughts?

[echidna]

Rim beads are all wrong.
0 in date is too thin.
Double rim evident on reverse.
etc etc.
Definitely fake.

[fred lever]

Basil what a beautiful example.
I will run it through the "Lever" identification process and report back later today.
Fred.