1930 penny london die - die markers

[fred lever]

OK, I made the usual checks and find the coin is a fantasy.

The reverse falls at the first test hurdle as the outer bead count is 195.
The bead count should be 174 denoting a "London" source die.
That is why as Ecchy noted the beads look odd.
Yes the "0" is the wrong shape more like the hub shape of the 1920 dies.
The obverse is a stock "English" 177 bead design as used from 1931 to 1936.
I'll send my work sheet #128 on this coin to Basil and Ecchy.
There is no need to examine the coin in any more detail, it is not a Melbourne Mint product.

Fred.

[acrellin]

The shape of the last 2 digits in the date are wrong for sure. The fields don't show any obvious signs of date alteration, it's a good effort.

[fred lever]

Hi Acrellin, and all,
I have a previous die struck version with the same rim  195 beads.
That old one is not so sophisticated, with poorer formed letters and numerals.
This one is a much better effort and probably die struck as well.
Earlier fake dies were spark erosion formed, what we are looking at this time looks like computer mill formed.
Hence the upgrade in design.
They have used a different date reverse coin with CBL as the pattern and scanned earlier shape numbers into the file.
Ditto with the obverse by using a post 31 coin as a scan pattern.
All they need to do now is scan a genuine 1930 coin into file and mill the rim and numbers right and we will all be in the poop!
That is WHY it is so important for the DIES of rare coins to be typed and recognised.
We all know which 3 dies were used in the 1930 series and the fakers need to include the fine details of each to get a leg up.
They may be deliberately pressing subtle fakes at the moment for some reason and not exact replicas, hence the old 195 bead rim.
Maybe to comply with "fantasy" and not "forgery".
If they get it better the only way to be surer will be to do "X-Ray" scanning of  a coin to determine metal content and period metals not just measure the coin for correct die type.
Fred.

[nealeffendi]

Now Fred. if the slimeballs have the ability to make a computer mill formed 1930 with the right die pairings then they will take that little extra step of getting the right metal content by buying bucket loads of VG pennies from the early to mid 1930s at scrap value and just melt them to get the right alloy; XRF analysis won't detect that as the alloy was unchanged during that period and it is much easier than trying to get pure copper, tin and zinc and melting the exact quantities of each.
If they scan a genuine 1930 (or better yet a couple of examples) they will have all the fine markers and if they compare their example to scans such as Trueview of other genuine coins then they will identify the genuine die markers from any distinguishing marks acquired in circulation. A bit of computer wizardry (and a decent understanding of what different grade coins should look like) and they will sharpen the details of their say F grade genuine scans to mill dies in every grade from VG to AU. Jingle them in their pockets for a few days to a few months to add individual differences to each coin and then speed up the toning to make them look 90 years old. They might even put them in the poop to take the red off them; then we will be in the poop trying to spot the fakes from the real deal.
Perhaps a "coin sniffer" that the TPGs use to detect artificial toning will be the last tool available to detect the fakes.

[fred lever]

Neil! We are all doomed!!
Yes, this is exercising my brain a bit. In that latest coin they seem to have avoided making an "exact" copy.
That leaves room for speculation as to why.
Also using an English obverse is a red flag.
They better not use a copy coin that I have mapped for circulation marks other wise I will know!
The obvious problem there is I dont have a map of every 1930!
Only about 100 of them.
Crap.
As well as putting fake circulation marks they will have to age, tone and imbed gunk into the corners and crevices of the details.
A "washed clean" look as that dud has is another red flag.
I agree about the metal content using similar age coins for stock strip, would they go that extra step of manufacturing?
Maybe for a $100,000 coin like a 1930 English obverse?
This could threaten the future of high value rare coins.
Every one would have to have the full battery of tests to prove age, before auction.
Fred.

[nealeffendi]

Hi Fred, not hard to pick up circulated pennies at scrap value and the biggest advantage of those pennies over making the bronze mix from scratch is the impurity/trace element factor. If they buy some copper or tin or zinc at Bunnings Shanghai store it won't be 100.0000% pure and the impurities may be trace elements that were never in the ores mined and smelted in Australia. Remember the Mickelburgs in WA case with the Perth mint gold. There was some gold that was supposed to be from that theft that was found, only problem is that analysis of that gold found it didn't match the signature of the Perth gold. Now gold is highly refined (3 nines or better) compared to say copper so whatever metal the fakers use will have a fair level of the wrong impurities. For $1000 I can buy 5000 (or more) scrap pennies and have enough bronze to make a few hundred of each of the scarcer pennies of that era ('25, 30, 30 English, both 31 Indians) and still have enough bronze left to make a stack of 31 Unicorns. What does it cost to mill dies once they have the equipment and  techniques down pat?
And they could still use any of the coins that you have mapped as once they scan a few themselves they will know which are genuine die markers and which are giveaway circulation marks and just erase them from their map prior to computer milling the dies.
Buy why should they stop with the pennies, just get a bucket of scrap sterling silver and start making '32s, '33s etc.

[Mister T]

I thought many years ago that fake 1905 half crowns were made with melted British silver coins but I might be wrong.

[fred lever]

MrT, the Chinese mints will be pushing out those coins by the bucket load as we speak!
While our local lads in the past years would knock out a few 2 bobs or pommy crowns from lead alloy, the Chinese have been at it for 1000's years.
They can make any coins in any grade of silver you like.
That is the main buisness, Chinese love gold and silver and it is legal  for them to make the coins.
Government approved so long as they pay the taxes on replicas.
How many you want, what grade? No ploblem!
We  have all seen the web sites with mounds of coins for sale.

That is why in Australia I would be very carefull of any 37/38 crown, 35 Centenary.
The Centenary coins are a special problem as the were not as carefully made as production coins and genuine variations in strike and rim shapes abound.
I have not focussed on those (well I did have a bash at the Centenary helping another specialist) , but have dud ones in my counterfeit collection.
Neil is very suspicious of some high grade  Australian silver coins and has pointed out coins of different dates but with the same circulation marks!!
I think this is a bigger problem than realised hence the special attention given to any recent coin, copper or silver, with odd die/circulation marks that repeat through onto other dates!
That brings us back to 30 and 31 pennys and how we have to be very careful not to get sucked in by overseas or local forgers.
Fred.

[Goldseeker]

I shall have to get my 1930's out and put up and see what you say about them.

[fred lever]

Always happy to see any 1930 images and put them through the "Lever" fitness test!
Fred.

[JeffH]

Waiting with interest.

[Goldseeker]

Here are the scans of my two 1930 pennies:



This is my second 1930 penny:



What can you tell me about them please.   I would be interested.

[echidna]

Very nice

[fred lever]

Thanks Goldie I will get a chance tomorrow to put them through the mill!
Fred.

[fred lever]

I had a look at both images in post #27.
Both show coins with 174 bead reverses and 178 bead obverses.
The  strikes are typical and sharp with well defined rims and beads.

The reverses are of two different varieties.
1/  the "certified" coin being a type V2 from die #S74.
2/ the other coin being a type V1 from die #75.
Thus you have 2 of the 4 possible varieties.  Well done!

Both coins carry circulation marks that characterise each for further identification if placed in the market.
Stereoscopic comparison with known coins shows the position of the 3 and 0 vary within the acceptable range, including allowance for image distortion in the medium. The die markers that define the varieties are well defined, e.g. "dot F" , "3 tip", small rim beads. See my last update on the 1930 varieties in CAB for more info.
While i dont care much about grade they look like like "Fine" grade to me.

Each coin has corrosion spots that need to be slowed down right now.
I would recommend a good wash in soapy water, rinse in hot water, pat dry and a very light coat of beeswax.
That will not disturb the patina or clean any stains off but will discourage the green grot a bit!

I see nothing that alerts me or suggests fakery so call both coins genuine.

Cheers, Fred.