5th Variety of 1931 Penny discovered

[JeffH]

How about this one? Few issues regarding condition.
AUSTRALIAN 1931 PENNY DROPPED 1 POSSIBLE RARE INDIAN DIE OR LONDON DIE

[fred lever]

Hey Jeff MS64 at least!
Should be sent off to that PCGS place for grading...or maybe not.
Not even my miracle cleaning technique is going to save that little beauty.
By the shape of the O above the crown its a English die, also the N looks like it points between bumps.
I nearly bid on it for fun but then I've got plenty of knackered coins, If it was a 1930 or D31Indian maybe........
Fred.

[Yurist]

It isn't so clear at all. If the masters were suffering from spread such that the letters were distorted (curved bases around the rim) then the proof dies would also have the CBL. Now hand finishing could fix minor defects but to overcome the fish tail appearance of dozens of letters would be a big task. And if they were incapable of fixing issues that involve far less work I doubt they could fix the curves. Those examples of issues they couldn't fix were things like chipped numbers such as the 8 on the blobby threepence of '48, poorly positioned numbers such as the dropped 1 penny and the erasure of the trefoil on a number of silver coins.
I'm sure that any number of proof coin owners can give examples of proofs that were less than perfect but suffice to say I can see faults in several pre decimal proofs I own caused by defects on the master and the defects also appear on the circulation strike dies from those masters. 
What's the difference between a Unicorn Penny and a Unicorn??? Nothing there both fictional. :yahoo: Fair enough!!. But do expect me to believe that the Mint would take the time effort + expense to commission engravers + engineers to make the Unicorn Master, only to knock out a couple of hundred coins!!!. HUMBUG...

Clearly, just as fictional as your considered and well substantiated comment. :shok:

Still think it's fictional?   Here is an article on the Unicorn Penny published recently by the JNAA.  

https://www.academia.edu/41899860/Journal_of_the_Numismatic_Association_of_Australia_Volume_29_2018-19_Final_printed_Web

See page 149.

 :blush: :blush: :blush:

[Basil]

Is that you Yuri ? ,interesting article ,lot of work/research by the look of it.
Page 149 for those that have trouble getting past the early articles on Foreign Coins.
I see Fred gets a mention as well as the usual suspects.
So ,without going down the Rabbit Hole and ending up in a padded room there are 2 types/varieties of dropped 1 Indians.  
If i see any in my travels i will throw the link in this Thread.

[nealeffendi]

Nice article Yuri. The reference to Deacon (top of page 151) is I presume James Hunt Deacon? Or is it somebody else. Plus what exactly is the reference source for Deacon as it appears to predate Dean. Possibly SANJ  or another old journal (my library is incomplete in regards to South Australian and Melbourne numismatic journals).
Would love to see the take of Holland and a few others on this 5th variety. Looks promising as deserving a guernsey in the list of recognised penny varieties.

[echidna]

Lets see some proper high res pics !
Otherwise I'd have to say this "unicorn penny" is rubbish.

On close examination of the available (poor) images:

• there is evidence of work and/or discolouration around the date for most
• the 3 in the date is different on some 
• the first 1 in the date is differently aligned on some 

No high res images have been made available, from what I can see.
Not good enough.
They look like 1929 Indians with an altered date.
With the first "1" also altered also.

Also why are these "Unicorn pennies" being sold on Ebay by a seller who has negative feedback for selling a fake 1930 penny ?

[Basil]

Lets see some proper high res pics !
Otherwise I'd have to say this "unicorn penny" is rubbish.

On close examination of the available (poor) images:

• there is evidence of work and/or discolouration around the date for most
• the 3 in the date is different on some 
• the first 1 in the date is differently aligned on some 

No high res images have been made available, from what I can see.
Not good enough.
They look like 1929 Indians with an altered date.
With the first "1" also altered also.

Also why are these "Unicorn pennies" being sold on Ebay by a seller who also sells fake (altered date) 1930 pennies ?

..you tell em Echi,a bit pretentious with the name 'Unicorn',no need for it. I don't have the knowledge/time/patience to say yay or nay but Yuri has sure put the time in.
Eric from Drake ID the fake 31 dropped Indian so they are out there.
Stay Tuned.

[Basil]

There are some Pics. of the Coin declared by Eric as a fake on page 4,does seem some disturbance around the date.

https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=5506&page=4&highlight=1931+dropped+Indian

On the subject of the Dropped Indian it beggars belief that it wasn't ID early in the piece,1930's/40's/50's.
Some of our biggest Coin Dealers got their start during the Depression,Phil Downie in Melb,1931 or 32 for eg.

The Coin Dealer(i will insert his name when i can find it or remember) that we had at School for a period a Week started his Business around the same time.Lost his job as a Wool Classer(Buyer?) in the early 1930's when the Wool Industry collapsed so he started selling his Stamp/Coin Collection to survive.This slowly morphed into him buying as well as he built up a Client list with funds to buy,buyers market in those days.
His break came when he put a small ad in the Herald,his house was in Surrey Hills(Redfern?) close to Central Station,Country Folk were getting the Train to Sydney(probably the same in Melb. & Brisbane) to sell possessions,Coin dealers usually gave a better price for Gold/Silver Coins than Pawn Brokers & Second hand Dealers,so suddenly he found he had a booming Business in Stamps & Coins.
Anyway terrible time in Aust. History that i hope is never repeated.
Point being it would be extremely unlikely the 31 Dropped Indian and similar Coins weren't ID  early in the piece.
Just my opinion.

[echidna]

Sold recently on Ebay for $4500:





A "Unicorn" penny listed by the same seller some time ago:





Same background.
Same photography.

Here is an image of the same "Unicorn" penny.
Image was copied from the Yurist gallery of "Unicorn" images:



I can post more images of other "Unicorn" pennies sold by the same seller.
He has sold a few.
They all match up with images from the "Yurist gallery".

[fred lever]

Hi Echidna, re#54.
 1/Yes please post up , or, email to me any images of 1930 and 1931 pennies.
As you know I have an interest in 1930 and 1931 pennies.
From an image such as  the first in the post, I can certainly make an opinion on whether a 1930 penny is a blatant fake or may be genuine. As to WHICH die variety a 1930 penny may be will require a detailed image around 1mb in size.

I'm holding back on WHICH die variety a 1931 penny may be.

[Yurist]

Nice article Yuri. The reference to Deacon (top of page 151) is I presume James Hunt Deacon? Or is it somebody else. Plus what exactly is the reference source for Deacon as it appears to predate Dean. Possibly SANJ  or another old journal (my library is incomplete in regards to South Australian and Melbourne numismatic journals).
Would love to see the take of Holland and a few others on this 5th variety. Looks promising as deserving a guernsey in the list of recognised penny varieties.

Hi Neal,  Thank you.  

The full reference is: James Hunt-Deacon and Kenneth J. Irons; , "The Story of Australia's Coinage and Currency" in the Australian Numismatic Journal, 11, 1960, p 6 


You will find more detail on Andrew Crellin's website at: https://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/blog/news-research/commonwealth-coins/the-1931-indian-penny-with-the-dropped-1-reverse-l/

[Unicorn]

Geez, I'm going to have to track down AJ & Trout and get a workshop set up, fancy referring to them as Unicorns ...... the hide! :laugh2:

[Yurist]

Lets see some proper high res pics !
Otherwise I'd have to say this "unicorn penny" is rubbish.

On close examination of the available (poor) images:

• there is evidence of work and/or discolouration around the date for most
• the 3 in the date is different on some 
• the first 1 in the date is differently aligned on some 

No high res images have been made available, from what I can see.
Not good enough.
They look like 1929 Indians with an altered date.
With the first "1" also altered also.

Also why are these "Unicorn pennies" being sold on Ebay by a seller who also sells fake (altered date) 1930 pennies ?

Echidna, 

Your spiny rhetoric fits your username very aptly.    

Rest assured though that the JNAA's standards of peer review are second to none.  The article is the result of many months of research with ample hi res images being scrutinised prior to their inclusion in the publication.  Attached is just one sample of the image quality taken from the article.   Not sure how much more hi res you need.

Also, had you actually read the article instead of jumping to conclusions, you would have noticed the floor being wiped with the '1929 Indian altered date' theory.  The same goes for the other obvious explanations that attempt to dismiss the coin.   

I suggest that you read the article and come back to me with a properly considered opinion that satisfies academic standards.  Otherwise, there is really little point in waving your fists around given that the fight is already over.     

PS. I will address your 'gotcha' moment with the eBay image in a later post, so you can see that "there is no there there" either.

[Yurist]

There are some Pics. of the Coin declared by Eric as a fake on page 4,does seem some disturbance around the date.

https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=5506&page=4&highlight=1931+dropped+Indian

On the subject of the Dropped Indian it beggars belief that it wasn't ID early in the piece,1930's/40's/50's.
Some of our biggest Coin Dealers got their start during the Depression,Phil Downie in Melb,1931 or 32 for eg.

The Coin Dealer(i will insert his name when i can find it or remember) that we had at School for a period a Week started his Business around the same time.Lost his job as a Wool Classer(Buyer?) in the early 1930's when the Wool Industry collapsed so he started selling his Stamp/Coin Collection to survive.This slowly morphed into him buying as well as he built up a Client list with funds to buy,buyers market in those days.
His break came when he put a small ad in the Herald,his house was in Surrey Hills(Redfern?) close to Central Station,Country Folk were getting the Train to Sydney(probably the same in Melb. & Brisbane) to sell possessions,Coin dealers usually gave a better price for Gold/Silver Coins than Pawn Brokers & Second hand Dealers,so suddenly he found he had a booming Business in Stamps & Coins.
Anyway terrible time in Aust. History that i hope is never repeated.
Point being it would be extremely unlikely the 31 Dropped Indian and similar Coins weren't ID  early in the piece.
Just my opinion.

Hi Basil, 

The article addresses your exact point and shows that the 1931 5th variety was actually identified by Dean some 65-70 years ago.   Sure, it wasn't discovered as early as the 1930 Indian obverse penny (which I believe was identified in the mid-1940's), but then neither was the 1930 English obverse penny.  Naturally, uber-rare coins will take longer to surface.

[fred lever]

RE my post #55 may look a bit odd, that's because the copper line feed to my office dropped out while I was doing an edit and wiped the bottom half of it . (that's the copper line the NBN think they will provide a reliable service to me...lots of luck, meanwhile from my G4 laptop:)

Re echidnas post #54 and the image of a sad looking 1930 penny.
I applied the first part of the "lever test" to that image and counted the denticles.
I find the reverse has 174 beads indicating it to be a London die. Pass.
The centre lines through the ALIA also fall in the right place with regards to the rim beads. Pass.

That means the coin does not go straight to the scrap bin and moves to the next set of tests being the shape and position of the digit dates, and then any die markers such as the "F dot", the "3 tip" and the "weak rim bead" in order to place WHICH variety it is.
Now we have a problem because the image is far too coarse to see any detail such as markers.
The coin condition also looks to me as though this is a corroded or crusted coin that has been cleaned.
However, from this vague image, the date digits do appear to be in a typical position of a genuine coin. This is not a Pass.
This is a , put aside and view coin closer as in the hand or fidelity photographs= Undecided.

Re post #59.
This is precisely the point with a 31 drop1 indian.
John Dean in his 1964 book described the reverse as having CURVED FEET letters.
Forget all the other tech stuff, this is the point.
John either got the description wrong, or, he was actually looking at a coin with CURVED FEET for the book.
I have a drop 1 with FLAT FEET. Every image of 1931 drop 1's I have (not many) show flat feet.

So, there is a question for you all, tell me if your 1931 drop1 Indian has FLAT or CURVED base letters?

Cheers, Fred.