5th Variety of 1931 Penny discovered

[Yurist]

Dear All,

I've just been informed that someone may have found a reference to the 5th variety of the 1931 penny in the 1965 book by John Dean "Australian Coin Varieties Catalogue" on page 44.   Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of this book in hand.  If anyone has a copy, I would very much appreciate it if you post a copy of page 44 here.  If this notation is true, then it would amount to very important evidence suggesting that the Unicorn Penny has been overlooked by the numismatic community for over 50 years (as only 4 varieties are generally known of).

Thank you in advance!

[fred lever]

No,  John Dean only lists 4 types on p43/44 and that's it.
I may have caused a problem by stupidly listing 5 types in my book on Aussie coins, but published a retraction in CAB and inforced that fact that only FOUR variations of main die type are found. To keep it simple that's the story.
There may be differences in types of die that could be called another variety, but i'm happy with FOUR main types.
You could read my last article in CAB, where I do a massive grovel, for the details.

Fred Lever.

[fred lever]

Just a bit of information on my articles:
The massive grovel article was in the May 2016 issue of CAB. That also had a bibliography of required reading by other researchers in the past.
To understand what was going on with pennies around 1929 to 1932 all of the mentioned articles need reading and understanding.
A later article in April 2019 covers some of the later research and findings and my take on that.
Pennies of that era take a massive lot of reading and research to understand, even I have to re-read all the papers and articles mentioned not only because i'm old and forgetting things but because of the complexity. It is not an easy subject to master.
The best catalog at the moment is Dr David Briggs book on pennies where he investigates the copper subject extensively. The current popular catalogs do not have anything like the detail needed to approach the subject.
I can email a PDF of my articles to anyone interested, I don't know if they can be attached in this forum i'm not that cluey with computors.
Fred.

[Yurist]

Didn't the dropped 1 Indian get a mention in the Deans Variety Catalogue of 1964/5 with 6 examples known? That predates that Downies advert by a few years.

Dear Neal, 

I've been told that there may be a reference to the Unicorn Penny as variety P31D on page 44 of John Dean's 1965 book.  Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the book to verify this.  I would very much apppreciate it if you could check the reference and possibly upload a copy of the page?  

Thank you very much in advance!

[fred lever]

Should have been more detailed about Dean

"P43: P31A Melbourne Mint English obverse curved base letters reverse. normal date.
P43: P31B Melbourne Mint, Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Normal date. Rare.
p44: P31c Melbourne Mint. English die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Different date, with last 1 dropped.
P44: P31D Melbourne Mint. Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Dropped 1 date variety. Extremely rare (only six examples reported from three states)." Please note that was in 1965 when only guys like Dean could tell the difference. Probably some mint pressed over 1000 or so. That means hundreds probably exist and that makes that baby very rare indeed. 1930's are common in comparison

Note: I don't get so excited about curved or flat base letters as this can be a function of an individual hub, and same date and variety coins can have flat or curved or both  bases! What you have to figure out is this: is the curving of letter bases a function of the Master, the Hub, the individual Die SHAPE, or, does it happen during the actual STRIKE, or is it a function of ALL of the above? that can make curved base letters a RANDOM or a TENDENCY depending on die SHAPE or a PROCESS. I will repeat , I can find coins with both flat and curved base letters.
Cheers, Fred.

[autocoupler]

I remember a discussion by others on the subject of curved base lettering on an earlier version of this forum back around 2004. There was an opinion that curved base lettering may have been a result of poor metal flow during the striking process due to lower pressure settings being employed by the Mint in order to lengthen die life. 

I have no idea myself, I'm just the messenger. No one here boss, it's just us chickens boss  :biggrin:

[Yurist]

Should have been more detailed about Dean

"P43: P31A Melbourne Mint English obverse curved base letters reverse. normal date.
P43: P31B Melbourne Mint, Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Normal date. Rare.
p44: P31c Melbourne Mint. English die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Different date, with last 1 dropped.
P44: P31D Melbourne Mint. Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Dropped 1 date variety. Extremely rare (only six examples reported from three states)." Please note that was in 1965 when only guys like Dean could tell the difference. Probably some mint pressed over 1000 or so. That means hundreds probably exist and that makes that baby very rare indeed. 1930's are common in comparison

Note: I don't get so excited about curved or flat base letters as this can be a function of an individual hub, and same date and variety coins can have flat or curved or both  bases! What you have to figure out is this: is the curving of letter bases a function of the Master, the Hub, the individual Die SHAPE, or, does it happen during the actual STRIKE, or is it a function of ALL of the above? that can make curved base letters a RANDOM or a TENDENCY depending on die SHAPE or a PROCESS. I will repeat , I can find coins with both flat and curved base letters.
Cheers, Fred.

[quote pid='119823' dateline='1563592966']
Dear Fred, 
Thanks for your comment.  You make an absolutely valid point regarding the curve-based letters.  If this feature is a random by-product of the minting process it could throw into question many existing coin classifications that have been observed for decades.  I believe the theory that purports to explain this phenomena is called 'channelled flow' and was published recently in the JNAA by Paul Holland.  

I have looked at this theory carefully, and in my opinion it is flawed for a number of reasons.  Firstly, curve-based letters are not observed on the obverses of any pennies.  Secondly, they are never observed on any other part of the reverse design including the words "One Penny", which should display some curvature if the dynamics of the theory are correct.  Thirdly, some of the curvatures in the letters - including the cross bars in the 'A's of Australia are curved in the opposite direction to the bases (which seems to debunk the theory).  Fourthly, (and most importantly) if you look at the proofs of many pennies (including the 1930) you will see that curve-base letters are prominently featured on the reverse legends.  We know that the hubs/dies used to strike proofs were without exception perfect and often hand finished to ensure they form an accurate representation of the intended design of the master die.  Clearly, therefore, curve-based lettering were indeed an intended design feature.  

As for the P31D, Dean has obviously noted the Unicorn Penny (with the curve-based letters), but it appears has not observed the currently known benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian die variety (without the curve-base letters).  In other words, there are 5 varieties of the 1931 penny of which Dean only noted 4 (missing the benchmark), whilst later numismatists noted the benchmark coin and missed the Unicorn Penny (also arriving at 4 varieties).   

I hope the above helps.  
[/quote]

[fred lever]

Yeah always good for a argument the CBL thing, one point, the fluid flow will be more exaggerated at the rim as the shock waves dissipate and the fluid state reverts to solid. CBL can be seen on other denominations as well.
I've never done any examination of obverses to look for fluid flow, must put on my to do list.
Um.......... just a small point....."proof 1930"? I'm not sure any 1930 dies were ever prepared  to a Proofing standard?
My reading is the Melbourne mint used the best sharpest die to knock out a handful of Samples for the Mint Master to sort through and pass them on as required. Hence the Six that wound up in Museums Mints etc. Those coins only became "proofs"  once the second hand coin dealers were looking for superlatives to flog off some pretty nice UNC grade examples.
Some of those now need a decent cleaning to get rid of the corrosion after sitting around in mothballs in museums, but that's another story!
Fred.

[serenitystan]

Should have been more detailed about Dean

"P43: P31A Melbourne Mint English obverse curved base letters reverse. normal date.
P43: P31B Melbourne Mint, Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Normal date. Rare.
p44: P31c Melbourne Mint. English die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Different date, with last 1 dropped.
P44: P31D Melbourne Mint. Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Dropped 1 date variety. Extremely rare (only six examples reported from three states)." Please note that was in 1965 when only guys like Dean could tell the difference. Probably some mint pressed over 1000 or so. That means hundreds probably exist and that makes that baby very rare indeed. 1930's are common in comparison

Note: I don't get so excited about curved or flat base letters as this can be a function of an individual hub, and same date and variety coins can have flat or curved or both  bases! What you have to figure out is this: is the curving of letter bases a function of the Master, the Hub, the individual Die SHAPE, or, does it happen during the actual STRIKE, or is it a function of ALL of the above? that can make curved base letters a RANDOM or a TENDENCY depending on die SHAPE or a PROCESS. I will repeat , I can find coins with both flat and curved base letters.
Cheers, Fred.    I would put my money on it happening during the strike. A flat cut die could curve due to extensive use. :scratch_one-s_head:

[Mister T]

I've never been too sure either way but I don't differentiate the flat and curved base letter coins - there are enough pennies as is without worrying about it.

[Yurist]

Just a bit of information on my articles:
The massive grovel article was in the May 2016 issue of CAB. That also had a bibliography of required reading by other researchers in the past.
To understand what was going on with pennies around 1929 to 1932 all of the mentioned articles need reading and understanding.
A later article in April 2019 covers some of the later research and findings and my take on that.
Pennies of that era take a massive lot of reading and research to understand, even I have to re-read all the papers and articles mentioned not only because i'm old and forgetting things but because of the complexity. It is not an easy subject to master.
The best catalog at the moment is Dr David Briggs book on pennies where he investigates the copper subject extensively. The current popular catalogs do not have anything like the detail needed to approach the subject.
I can email a PDF of my articles to anyone interested, I don't know if they can be attached in this forum i'm not that cluey with computors.
Fred.

Dear Fred, I would be most interested in receiving PDF copies of your articles.  Please email them to 1931unicorn.penny@gmail.com

Thank you in advance.

[Yurist]

Should have been more detailed about Dean

"P43: P31A Melbourne Mint English obverse curved base letters reverse. normal date.
P43: P31B Melbourne Mint, Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Normal date. Rare.
p44: P31c Melbourne Mint. English die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Different date, with last 1 dropped.
P44: P31D Melbourne Mint. Indian die obverse, curved base letters reverse. Dropped 1 date variety. Extremely rare (only six examples reported from three states)." Please note that was in 1965 when only guys like Dean could tell the difference. Probably some mint pressed over 1000 or so. That means hundreds probably exist and that makes that baby very rare indeed. 1930's are common in comparison

Note: I don't get so excited about curved or flat base letters as this can be a function of an individual hub, and same date and variety coins can have flat or curved or both  bases! What you have to figure out is this: is the curving of letter bases a function of the Master, the Hub, the individual Die SHAPE, or, does it happen during the actual STRIKE, or is it a function of ALL of the above? that can make curved base letters a RANDOM or a TENDENCY depending on die SHAPE or a PROCESS. I will repeat , I can find coins with both flat and curved base letters.
Cheers, Fred.    I would put my money on it happening during the strike. A flat cut die could curve due to extensive use. :scratch_one-s_head:

Thanks Fred.  I agree that the P31D variety as described by Dean (containing the curve-based letters and otherwise known as the 'Unicorn Penny') is a super rare coin.  

As you say, since the 'best and sharpest dies' were used to strike the 'proof' samples at the Mint Master's discretion, I imagine the Mint Master would have noticed any glaring discrepancy (such as curve-based lettering) that was ostensibly different to the master die.   C'mon... they were not blind.  :-)  

Moreover, it is difficult to believe that curve-based lettering would have been missed over and over again by the Mint Masters in virtually all such proof/sample instances.  Ultimately, the very existence of these 'proof' quality coins (in particular the very well-documented 1930 penny 'proofs'), which contain clearly expressed curve-based lettering is irrefutable evidence of the curvatures (including curvature of the cross bars in the 'A' in AUSTRALIA) being an intended part of the master die design.  

To say the least, these 'proof' quality samples pose a very high hurdle to jump for 'channelled flow' theorists.   

Personally, I think too many excuses/exceptions are being made for the somewhat complex 'channelled flow' explanation, and whilst undoubtedly there is scientific merit to this theory, I believe it is more suited to explain the varying degrees of curvature expression rather than the origin of the curve-based lettering.   

As for you seeing both 'flat' and 'curved' base letters of the same coin, I suggest (with the utmost respect) that what you could in fact be observing is the opposite effect i.e. original curve-based letters losing some of their curvature expression due to a loosening of the die or die wear.  The simplest explanation is often the best!

[nealeffendi]

It isn't so clear at all. If the masters were suffering from spread such that the letters were distorted (curved bases around the rim) then the proof dies would also have the CBL. Now hand finishing could fix minor defects but to overcome the fish tail appearance of dozens of letters would be a big task. And if they were incapable of fixing issues that involve far less work I doubt they could fix the curves. Those examples of issues they couldn't fix were things like chipped numbers such as the 8 on the blobby threepence of '48, poorly positioned numbers such as the dropped 1 penny and the erasure of the trefoil on a number of silver coins.
I'm sure that any number of proof coin owners can give examples of proofs that were less than perfect but suffice to say I can see faults in several pre decimal proofs I own caused by defects on the master and the defects also appear on the circulation strike dies from those masters.

[nealeffendi]

Hi All, 

Just wanted to let you know of an interesting new discovery.  A 5th variety of the 1931 penny.  It has a dropped 1 and Indian obverse, but other characteristics distinguish it from the benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse variety.   It's been dubbed by collectors as the "Unicorn Penny" because of its rarity and mystical origins.  There have been 7 coins discovered so far.  Some of them have irrefutable provenance - one Unicorn Penny was owned by an 80 y.o. collector for many decades and another was discovered belonging to a woman born in 1931.  Her father (a collector) gave her the coin when she was young.   

Check your collections - you may unwittingly own one of the truly rarest varieties of Australian pennies.    

Have a read of this article for more information.  

https://sites.google.com/view/1931dropped1indianpennyvariety/home

i'm getting a 404 error message

[Yurist]

Hi All, 

Just wanted to let you know of an interesting new discovery.  A 5th variety of the 1931 penny.  It has a dropped 1 and Indian obverse, but other characteristics distinguish it from the benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse variety.   It's been dubbed by collectors as the "Unicorn Penny" because of its rarity and mystical origins.  There have been 7 coins discovered so far.  Some of them have irrefutable provenance - one Unicorn Penny was owned by an 80 y.o. collector for many decades and another was discovered belonging to a woman born in 1931.  Her father (a collector) gave her the coin when she was young.   

Check your collections - you may unwittingly own one of the truly rarest varieties of Australian pennies.    

Have a read of this article for more information.  

https://sites.google.com/view/1931dropped1indianpennyvariety/home

i'm getting a 404 error message

Sorry Neal, I have taken the article offline temporarily for review in light of the information recently procured from John Dean's book.   I will let you know when it goes back online.  Cheers!