5th Variety of 1931 Penny discovered

[Yurist]

Fake (altered date) 1930 which sold recently on Ebay for $4500:





A "Unicorn" penny listed by the same seller some time ago:





Same background.
Same photography.

Here is an image of the same "Unicorn" penny.
Image was copied from the Yurist gallery of "Unicorn" images:



I can post more images of other "Unicorn" pennies sold by the same seller.
He has sold a few.
They all match up with images from the "Yurist gallery".
(Which was locked last time I checked).

Doesn't look good to see our wonderful "Unicorn" pennies being sold by the same seller who sells fake 1930s.

PM for details of the seller.

There is a total of 8 Unicorn Pennies discovered so far, sourced from 5 different collectors across the country.  Two collectors - an octogenarian man and his slightly older sister, held 3 such coins between them.   As the JNAA article states, the sister was born in 1931 and was gifted her coins by her father as a birthday gift when she was a young girl.  The fact that her brother misidentified the coins (thinking they were the 1931 benchmark dropped 1 Indian obverse pennies) I would say is forgivable.  Dean discovered the Unicorn Penny in the early 1960s, and experts have been making the same mistake ever since.  

For me, as a researcher wading through thousands of online images, this eBay trader turned out to be an invaluable resource.  The fact that he later misidentified a fake 1930 penny is certainly less forgivable, but is probably a reflection of his limited knowledge (and perhaps a little hope) rather than malicious intent.  Indeed he wouldn't be the first person who's made that mistake before.  I don't see anything sinister or criminal here, and I know the same trader is currently offering a genuine benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse penny for sale on eBay.  

See: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped1-Ind-obv-Penny-Rarer-Than-1930-Penny-6P/124091587300?hash=item1ce46f5ae4:g:Ai8AAOSwqQBbVoEj

Tempting as it may be to subscribe to a conspiracy theory linking the Unicorn Penny to some rogue eBay trader, the truth in fact, is a lot less fanciful.

[Yurist]

RE my post #55 may look a bit odd, that's because the copper line feed to my office dropped out while I was doing an edit and wiped the bottom half of it . (that's the copper line the NBN think they will provide a reliable service to me...lots of luck, meanwhile from my G4 laptop:)

Re echidnas post #54 and the image of a sad looking 1930 penny.
I applied the first part of the "lever test" to that image and counted the denticles.
I find the reverse has 174 beads indicating it to be a London die. Pass.
The centre lines through the ALIA also fall in the right place with regards to the rim beads. Pass.

That means the coin does not go straight to the scrap bin and moves to the next set of tests being the shape and position of the digit dates, and then any die markers such as the "F dot", the "3 tip" and the "weak rim bead" in order to place WHICH variety it is.
Now we have a problem because the image is far too coarse to see any detail such as markers.
The coin condition also looks to me as though this is a corroded or crusted coin that has been cleaned.
However, from this vague image, the date digits do appear to be in a typical position of a genuine coin. This is not a Pass.
This is a , put aside and view coin closer as in the hand or fidelity photographs= Undecided.

Re post #59.
This is precisely the point with a 31 drop1 indian.
John Dean in his 1964 book described the reverse as having CURVED FEET letters.
Forget all the other tech stuff, this is the point.
John either got the description wrong, or, he was actually looking at a coin with CURVED FEET for the book.
I have a drop 1 with FLAT FEET. Every image of 1931 drop 1's I have (not many) show flat feet.

So, there is a question for you all, tell me if your 1931 drop1 Indian has FLAT or CURVED base letters?

Cheers, Fred.

Bravo Fred!    

That is exactly the point.  

Just to put John Dean's credibility into perspective, he was the founding editor of Australia's first coin collectors magazine - the Australian Coin Review, which now operates under the banner of the Coin and Banknote Magazine.  Clearly, he was not some amateur with a laissez faire approach to important observations.  In fact, he wrote a book dedicated to describing Australian coin varieties (The Australian Coin Varieties Catalogue 1965), wherein he specifically noted that only SIX of the 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse pennies variety were known - ALL of which contained CURVED-BASE letters.  

To entertain the notion that John Dean's observation was wrong, one would have to present evidence supporting such an assertion.  However, not only is there an absence of such evidence, but conversely there is now physical proof of EIGHT of the coins with CURVED-BASE letters in existence.    

Combine that with the numerous unique die attributes found in this penny variety, and the truth becomes somewhat apparent.

[Basil]

There is a total of 8 Unicorn Pennies discovered so far, sourced from 5 different collectors across the country.  Two collectors - an octogenarian man and his slightly older sister, held 3 such coins between them.   As the JNAA article states, the sister was born in 1931 and was gifted her coins by her father as a birthday gift when she was a young girl.

Ok,i don't know how factual that all  is but it has the history of the 1930 Penny written all over it,page after page of hearsay and unsubstantiated 'facts'.  
The guy that was busted selling 1930 fakes in Sydney back in the late 1960's had a letter,JP endorsed, from an elderly Lady saying it was her Husbands Coin he received from the Melb. Mint.The letter was genuine but her deceased Husband never got a Penny from the Mint and the Coin was a fake.The Fraudster used the letter multilple times.

For me, as a researcher wading through thousands of online images, this eBay trader turned out to be an invaluable resource.  The fact that he later misidentified a fake 1930 penny is certainly less forgivable, but is probably a reflection of his limited knowledge (and perhaps a little hope) rather than malicious intent.  Indeed he wouldn't be the first person who's made that mistake before.  I don't see anything sinister or criminal here, and I know the same trader is currently offering a genuine benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse penny for sale on eBay.  

The dealer/person in question was also caught out selling a fake 1931 dropped Indian,link above,he also sold several 200L wheely Bins of Coppers,i think he knows his way around a Penny.

See: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped1-Ind-obv-Penny-Rarer-Than-1930-Penny-6P/124091587300?hash=item1ce46f5ae4:g:Ai8AAOSwqQBbVoEj

Tempting as it may be to subscribe to a conspiracy theory linking the Unicorn Penny to some rogue eBay trader, the truth in fact, is a lot less fanciful.

Yuri i hope it turns out well for you after all the effort and time you have put in but TBH it looks a bit dicey at the moment but as i said its all above my pay grade but i enjoy the discussion after several weeks of this Forum being in the Doldrums.

[serenitystan]

RE my post #55 may look a bit odd, that's because the copper line feed to my office dropped out while I was doing an edit and wiped the bottom half of it . (that's the copper line the NBN think they will provide a reliable service to me...lots of luck, meanwhile from my G4 laptop:)

Re echidnas post #54 and the image of a sad looking 1930 penny.
I applied the first part of the "lever test" to that image and counted the denticles.
I find the reverse has 174 beads indicating it to be a London die. Pass.
The centre lines through the ALIA also fall in the right place with regards to the rim beads. Pass.

That means the coin does not go straight to the scrap bin and moves to the next set of tests being the shape and position of the digit dates, and then any die markers such as the "F dot", the "3 tip" and the "weak rim bead" in order to place WHICH variety it is.
Now we have a problem because the image is far too coarse to see any detail such as markers.
The coin condition also looks to me as though this is a corroded or crusted coin that has been cleaned.
However, from this vague image, the date digits do appear to be in a typical position of a genuine coin. This is not a Pass.
This is a , put aside and view coin closer as in the hand or fidelity photographs= Undecided.

Re post #59.
This is precisely the point with a 31 drop1 indian.
John Dean in his 1964 book described the reverse as having CURVED FEET letters.
Forget all the other tech stuff, this is the point.
John either got the description wrong, or, he was actually looking at a coin with CURVED FEET for the book.
I have a drop 1 with FLAT FEET. Every image of 1931 drop 1's I have (not many) show flat feet.

So, there is a question for you all, tell me if your 1931 drop1 Indian has FLAT or CURVED base letters?

Cheers, Fred.    Hi Fred, Could be my eyes,but i have seen the coin with flat,curved and what i call half curved base letters..Also have seen one with just the two MM + T with curves..The same 9 + 1 on the ones with half + full curves and a different 9 + 1 on the ones with flat letters..Do curved letters flatten out or flat letters curve during the minting process...Check out some of the lettering and the 9 on Drake Sterlings 1931 dropped Indian..Like i said,Could be my eyes... :yeah_that:

Bravo Fred!    

That is exactly the point.  

Just to put John Dean's credibility into perspective, he was the founding editor of Australia's first coin collectors magazine - the Australian Coin Review, which now operates under the banner of the Coin and Banknote Magazine.  Clearly, he was not some amateur with a laissez faire approach to important observations.  In fact, he wrote a book dedicated to describing Australian coin varieties (The Australian Coin Varieties Catalogue 1965), wherein he specifically noted that only SIX of the 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse pennies variety were known - ALL of which contained CURVED-BASE letters.  

To entertain the notion that John Dean's observation was wrong, one would have to present evidence supporting such an assertion.  However, not only is there an absence of such evidence, but conversely there is now physical proof of EIGHT of the coins with CURVED-BASE letters in existence.    

Combine that with the numerous unique die attributes found in this penny variety, and the truth becomes somewhat apparent.

There is a total of 8 Unicorn Pennies discovered so far, sourced from 5 different collectors across the country.  Two collectors - an octogenarian man and his slightly older sister, held 3 such coins between them.   As the JNAA article states, the sister was born in 1931 and was gifted her coins by her father as a birthday gift when she was a young girl.

Ok,i don't know how factual that all  is but it has the history of the 1930 Penny written all over it,page after page of hearsay and unsubstantiated 'facts'.  
The guy that was busted selling 1930 fakes in Sydney back in the late 1960's had a letter,JP endorsed, from an elderly Lady saying it was her Husbands Coin he received from the Melb. Mint.The letter was genuine but her deceased Husband never got a Penny from the Mint and the Coin was a fake.The Fraudster used the letter multilple times.

For me, as a researcher wading through thousands of online images, this eBay trader turned out to be an invaluable resource.  The fact that he later misidentified a fake 1930 penny is certainly less forgivable, but is probably a reflection of his limited knowledge (and perhaps a little hope) rather than malicious intent.  Indeed he wouldn't be the first person who's made that mistake before.  I don't see anything sinister or criminal here, and I know the same trader is currently offering a genuine benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse penny for sale on eBay.  

The dealer/person in question was also caught out selling a fake 1931 dropped Indian,link above,he also sold several 200L wheely Bins of Coppers,i think he knows his way around a Penny.

See: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped1-Ind-obv-Penny-Rarer-Than-1930-Penny-6P/124091587300?hash=item1ce46f5ae4:g:Ai8AAOSwqQBbVoEj

Tempting as it may be to subscribe to a conspiracy theory linking the Unicorn Penny to some rogue eBay trader, the truth in fact, is a lot less fanciful.

Yuri i hope it turns out well for you after all the effort and time you have put in but TBH it looks a bit dicey at the moment but as i said its all above my pay grade but i enjoy the discussion after several weeks of this Forum being in the Doldrums.

[nealeffendi]

Although the article was peer reviewed it still isn't 100% certain the variety is kosher. Would take some chutzpah to pull a fraud off like this though (a David Gee level). Hi-res images  are not enough as it needs XRF analysis results and an examination in hand by experts in the pennies of 1930-31.
Also even though the article was peer reviewed I have to ask if those reviewers are experts in the 1930-31 pennies or just generalists or dealers who might spot glaring errors but not the minutiae. It is surprising how many errors can appear in the journals that escape the peer review process (in one example from a coin journal I spotted over 30 errors written by a certain curator of a museum about the 1920 penny, I won't name the journal or the curator but I'm sure some will figure out which journal/curator I'm referring to).

[fred lever]

Re #64 Hi  Stan, no, your eyes are 100%!
I commented in my book on Aussie coins and in CAB articles that coins can be FBL on one side and CBL on the other and showed photographic evidence in both over the years.
The reasons as to why the letters stretch and distort on coins, dies and hubs is well researched and commented on.
Where a hub or die contains the distortion then many coins will have the distortion.
Where a FBL die produces CBL on a coin because of local conditions on the day (lots of reasons to do with pressure waves, metal flow in the collar space, down the rabbit hole we go) there may be coins with FBL on one side and CBL on the other and the number may be low.
With regard to the 1931, Dean logged the Drop1 Indian as CBL and from that I make the ASSUMPTION that he was looking at a coin with obviously curved letters rather than flat dead straight. He was really careful about his descriptions with the pennies and placed a lot of importance on the CBL/FBL appearance. My ASSUMPTION is he did not log it as FBL because that was not what he was looking at.
I am not adding the 5th variety of this coin into my world because I don't have enough evidence to do so.
When I do it will be just a die pair variety not some commercial name.
My world is solid engineering and logic and repeatability.
I am waiting with baited breath for a source, independent of myself and Yuri, to come up with evidence for a CBL 1931 drop 1.
?? Waiting.
Fred.

[Yurist]

There is a total of 8 Unicorn Pennies discovered so far, sourced from 5 different collectors across the country.  Two collectors - an octogenarian man and his slightly older sister, held 3 such coins between them.   As the JNAA article states, the sister was born in 1931 and was gifted her coins by her father as a birthday gift when she was a young girl.

Ok,i don't know how factual that all  is but it has the history of the 1930 Penny written all over it,page after page of hearsay and unsubstantiated 'facts'.  

A curious observation given that the JNAA article is a comparative analysis that specifically examines coin attributes (i.e. facts) dating back to a highly credible expert source from 1965 and is fully referenced and footnoted.   Sure, there is a little anecdotal content when it comes to the discussion of provenance, but given that the coin was lost for 55 years, that seems hardly surprising.  

The guy that was busted selling 1930 fakes in Sydney back in the late 1960's had a letter,JP endorsed, from an elderly Lady saying it was her Husbands Coin he received from the Melb. Mint.The letter was genuine but her deceased Husband never got a Penny from the Mint and the Coin was a fake.The Fraudster used the letter multilple times.

Not exactly an ingenious plot, but certainly a good lesson in the principles of 'caveat emptor'.  I'm not sure you're saying anything insightful regarding the case in hand though - other than perhaps a general reminder that 'there are fraudsters out there'.    

For me, as a researcher wading through thousands of online images, this eBay trader turned out to be an invaluable resource.  The fact that he later misidentified a fake 1930 penny is certainly less forgivable, but is probably a reflection of his limited knowledge (and perhaps a little hope) rather than malicious intent.  Indeed he wouldn't be the first person who's made that mistake before.  I don't see anything sinister or criminal here, and I know the same trader is currently offering a genuine benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse penny for sale on eBay.  

The dealer/person in question was also caught out selling a fake 1931 dropped Indian,link above,he also sold several 200L wheely Bins of Coppers,i think he knows his way around a Penny.

Interesting.  Please enlighten us further with the... what was it you said(?) ... oh, yes 'FACTS'.  Who caught him exactly? Where and when was he caught?  Please remember... no HEARSAY or anything UNSUBSTANTIATED though.    

See: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped1-Ind-obv-Penny-Rarer-Than-1930-Penny-6P/124091587300?hash=item1ce46f5ae4:g:Ai8AAOSwqQBbVoEj

Tempting as it may be to subscribe to a conspiracy theory linking the Unicorn Penny to some rogue eBay trader, the truth in fact, is a lot less fanciful.

Yuri i hope it turns out well for you after all the effort and time you have put in but TBH it looks a bit dicey at the moment but as i said its all above my pay grade but i enjoy the discussion after several weeks of this Forum being in the Doldrums.

[serenitystan]

Re #64 Hi  Stan, no, your eyes are 100%!
I commented in my book on Aussie coins and in CAB articles that coins can be FBL on one side and CBL on the other and showed photographic evidence in both over the years.
The reasons as to why the letters stretch and distort on coins, dies and hubs is well researched and commented on.
Where a hub or die contains the distortion then many coins will have the distortion.
Where a FBL die produces CBL on a coin because of local conditions on the day (lots of reasons to do with pressure waves, metal flow in the collar space, down the rabbit hole we go) there may be coins with FBL on one side and CBL on the other and the number may be low.
With regard to the 1931, Dean logged the Drop1 Indian as CBL and from that I make the ASSUMPTION that he was looking at a coin with obviously curved letters rather than flat dead straight. He was really careful about his descriptions with the pennies and placed a lot of importance on the CBL/FBL appearance. My ASSUMPTION is he did not log it as FBL because that was not what he was looking at.
I am not adding the 5th variety of this coin into my world because I don't have enough evidence to do so.
When I do it will be just a die pair variety not some commercial name.
My world is solid engineering and logic and repeatability.
I am waiting with baited breath for a source, independent of myself and Yuri, to come up with evidence for a CBL 1931 drop 1.
?? Waiting.
Fred.      :yeah_that: :i_agree:    But hats off to Yuri, he's having a go. Probably stuck in front of a computer at 3am with empty pizza boxes everywhere..he he...Least it will keep him off the streets...LOL... :laugh2:

[Yurist]

Although the article was peer reviewed it still isn't 100% certain the variety is kosher. Would take some chutzpah to pull a fraud off like this though (a David Gee level). Hi-res images  are not enough as it needs XRF analysis results and an examination in hand by experts in the pennies of 1930-31.
Also even though the article was peer reviewed I have to ask if those reviewers are experts in the 1930-31 pennies or just generalists or dealers who might spot glaring errors but not the minutiae. It is surprising how many errors can appear in the journals that escape the peer review process (in one example from a coin journal I spotted over 30 errors written by a certain curator of a museum about the 1920 penny, I won't name the journal or the curator but I'm sure some will figure out which journal/curator I'm referring to).

Neal, since you asked... the peer reviewers were most definitely experts in the 1930/31 penny.  Truthfully, as a result of their reviews, I made numerous and substantial changes to the article - focussing on the finer details of the comparative analysis.  Of course, errors can appear in publications (in some journals more often than in others) and I always invite a healthy dose of scepticism when it comes to a discussion of presented facts.  I'm happy to address anything substantive in the article that you have concerns over.  Do let me know if you find anything.  

As for the JNAA generally - just to set the record straight - this is not some hastily-put-together coin collectors magazine.  It is a serious publication produced by highly respected experts from the world of academia.  The latest volume took over a year to compile and I believe its quality and integrity is a true testament to the time and effort invested.

[Yurist]

Re #64 Hi  Stan, no, your eyes are 100%!
I commented in my book on Aussie coins and in CAB articles that coins can be FBL on one side and CBL on the other and showed photographic evidence in both over the years.
The reasons as to why the letters stretch and distort on coins, dies and hubs is well researched and commented on.
Where a hub or die contains the distortion then many coins will have the distortion.
Where a FBL die produces CBL on a coin because of local conditions on the day (lots of reasons to do with pressure waves, metal flow in the collar space, down the rabbit hole we go) there may be coins with FBL on one side and CBL on the other and the number may be low.
With regard to the 1931, Dean logged the Drop1 Indian as CBL and from that I make the ASSUMPTION that he was looking at a coin with obviously curved letters rather than flat dead straight. He was really careful about his descriptions with the pennies and placed a lot of importance on the CBL/FBL appearance. My ASSUMPTION is he did not log it as FBL because that was not what he was looking at.
I am not adding the 5th variety of this coin into my world because I don't have enough evidence to do so.
When I do it will be just a die pair variety not some commercial name.
My world is solid engineering and logic and repeatability.
I am waiting with baited breath for a source, independent of myself and Yuri, to come up with evidence for a CBL 1931 drop 1.
?? Waiting.
Fred.      :yeah_that: :i_agree:    But hats off to Yuri, he's having a go. Probably stuck in front of a computer at 3am with empty pizza boxes everywhere..he he...Least it will keep him off the streets...LOL... :laugh2:

All too true Fred!    :sportbike:

[Basil]

There is a total of 8 Unicorn Pennies discovered so far, sourced from 5 different collectors across the country.  Two collectors - an octogenarian man and his slightly older sister, held 3 such coins between them.   As the JNAA article states, the sister was born in 1931 and was gifted her coins by her father as a birthday gift when she was a young girl.

Ok,i don't know how factual that all  is but it has the history of the 1930 Penny written all over it,page after page of hearsay and unsubstantiated 'facts'.  

A curious observation given that the JNAA article is a comparative analysis that specifically examines coin attributes (i.e. facts) dating back to a highly credible expert source from 1965 and is fully referenced and footnoted.   Sure, there is a little anecdotal content when it comes to the discussion of provenance, but given that the coin was lost for 55 years, that seems hardly surprising.  

Yuri,please, "a little anecdotal",no Professional paper should have BS like that included,you are not selling a used car driven to Church by a little old Lady on Sunday,its a review,for want of a better word,of a Coin variety,you need to name them and obtain a Stat. Dec. before a Editor would even think about  including it in a published piece.I know that because my Niece is  a Journo. and i've completed a lot of research for her.
 As far as this 1965 expert goes(Dean i guess) i'm the person who pointed you in the correct direction when your website was saying they were ID in the 1980's(70's?) when in fact they were common knowledge in the 1960's when i was at School,i posted the Downies 1966 Coin price sheet,A$80 for a dropped Indian,and you changed the Website.
I'm sure the Dropped Indian was known before the 1960's,i'm still chasing some Info. on this.Stay tuned.


The guy that was busted selling 1930 fakes in Sydney back in the late 1960's had a letter,JP endorsed, from an elderly Lady saying it was her Husbands Coin he received from the Melb. Mint.The letter was genuine but her deceased Husband never got a Penny from the Mint and the Coin was a fake.The Fraudster used the letter multilple times.

Not exactly an ingenious plot, but certainly a good lesson in the principles of 'caveat emptor'.  I'm not sure you're saying anything insightful regarding the case in hand though - other than perhaps a general reminder that 'there are fraudsters out there'.

I have a newspaper clipping on this particular fellow,the scams with the 1923 half were worse.    

For me, as a researcher wading through thousands of online images, this eBay trader turned out to be an invaluable resource.  The fact that he later misidentified a fake 1930 penny is certainly less forgivable, but is probably a reflection of his limited knowledge (and perhaps a little hope) rather than malicious intent.  Indeed he wouldn't be the first person who's made that mistake before.  I don't see anything sinister or criminal here, and I know the same trader is currently offering a genuine benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse penny for sale on eBay.  

The dealer/person in question was also caught out selling a fake 1931 dropped Indian,link above,he also sold several 200L wheely Bins of Coppers,i think he knows his way around a Penny.

Interesting.  Please enlighten us further with the... what was it you said(?) ... oh, yes 'FACTS'.  Who caught him exactly? Where and when was he caught?  Please remember... no HEARSAY or anything UNSUBSTANTIATED though.    


 I included the link in this Thread,Post No. 38,ID by Eric from Drake Coins as a Fake.Before you start digging the hole any deeper prove Eric is wrong.

https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=5506&page=4&highlight=1931+dropped+Indian

As far as the Wheelie Bin Coins go ask your mate,they were on Ebay last year and mentioned
 on this Forum. 

See: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped1-Ind-obv-Penny-Rarer-Than-1930-Penny-6P/124091587300?hash=item1ce46f5ae4:g:Ai8AAOSwqQBbVoEj

Tempting as it may be to subscribe to a conspiracy theory linking the Unicorn Penny to some rogue eBay trader, the truth in fact, is a lot less fanciful.

Yuri i hope it turns out well for you after all the effort and time you have put in but TBH it looks a bit dicey at the moment but as i said its all above my pay grade but i enjoy the discussion after several weeks of this Forum being in the Doldrums.

Yuri,did you read the above,its not me you have to convince,i'm a Hobby Collector who has been sucked into doing research and compiling Records on the 1930 Penny for a aging Family Friend so i am deeply interested in anything to do with 1931 Pennies...good luck with it,but to quote my Niece who is following this story,"what pretentious wanker came up with the name 'Unicorn' for an old Coin".   

[echidna]

This is a "Unicorn" according to Yurist.
I think its fairly obvious that there has been something done in the date area.
A depression in the surface is visible especially around the second 1.
Plus discolouration which is limited to the date area only.
(Dont remember where the pic came from - probably sold on Ebay).





Not sure if this is a "Unicorn" also but it has had work done :
Depression around the last 1 and discolouration around the date area only.
The 3 is just all wrong and the last 1 is different.
(I think this one was sold on Ebay last year)

Point is that it demonstrates that 1931 dropped 1 Indians are being faked.

Yurist - why don't you provide some proper high res pics so we can see the date area of all of them ?
Are they all like this - with evidence of alterations ?

[Basil]

Echinda.."Point is that it demonstrates that 1931 dropped 1 Indians are being faked."

I don't think there is any doubt about that,there were too many suddenly turning up on Ebay the last couple of years,i know our local Dealer won't touch anything that hasn't got the die marker after 'S' but he has only only ever been offered a couple to buy the last few years.

I think Yuri is genuine and,for whatever reason, has really got stuck into this variety but whether its wasted time or a success time will tell.
Little point me arguing the case for or against as i don't have the knowledge or the Coins to examine,i'm sure Neale,Fred,yourself and others will come to a conclusion down the track.Might also be time for Walter,Eric or our glorious Forum leader to have a say.
Interesting Thread.

[Yurist]

There is a total of 8 Unicorn Pennies discovered so far, sourced from 5 different collectors across the country.  Two collectors - an octogenarian man and his slightly older sister, held 3 such coins between them.   As the JNAA article states, the sister was born in 1931 and was gifted her coins by her father as a birthday gift when she was a young girl.

Ok,i don't know how factual that all  is but it has the history of the 1930 Penny written all over it,page after page of hearsay and unsubstantiated 'facts'.  

A curious observation given that the JNAA article is a comparative analysis that specifically examines coin attributes (i.e. facts) dating back to a highly credible expert source from 1965 and is fully referenced and footnoted.   Sure, there is a little anecdotal content when it comes to the discussion of provenance, but given that the coin was lost for 55 years, that seems hardly surprising.  

Yuri,please, "a little anecdotal",no Professional paper should have BS like that included,you are not selling a used car driven to Church by a little old Lady on Sunday,its a review,for want of a better word,of a Coin variety,you need to name them and obtain a Stat. Dec. before a Editor would even think about it including it in a published piece.I know that because my Niece is  a Journo. and i've completed a lot of research for her.
As far as this 1965 expert goes(Dean i guess) i'm the person who pointed you in the correct direction when your website was saying they were ID in the 1980's(70's?) when in fact they were common knowledge in the 1960's when i was at School,i posted the Downies 1966 Coin price sheet,A$80 for a dropped Indian,and you changed the Website.
I'm sure the Dropped Indian was known before the 1960's,i'm still chasing some Info. on this.Stay tuned.

I'm not sure what your background is, but you sure make yourself sound like an authority on the content of 'Professional papers' (whatever that term actually means).   Nevertheless, with the limited experience in academic writing that I do have, I can offer you the following guidance:  the paper is not a 'review' nor specifically is it a review of the coin's provenance.  It is a comparative analysis that focuses primarily on observable attributes of certain coins and draws conclusions based on those features.  The ancillary material on authenticity and provenance is provided in the form of a discussion that invites further consideration and debate, which I am happy to see is happening.  

Similarly, my website was a research platform designed to stimulate discussion and invite expert commentary that was subsequently considered for inclusion into the paper.  Whilst I'm grateful for your comments regarding the 1931 dropped 1 Indian penny being known since the 1960's, it was actually another commentator who alerted me to Dean's notations.  Sorry to burst your bubble!  
          

The guy that was busted selling 1930 fakes in Sydney back in the late 1960's had a letter,JP endorsed, from an elderly Lady saying it was her Husbands Coin he received from the Melb. Mint.The letter was genuine but her deceased Husband never got a Penny from the Mint and the Coin was a fake.The Fraudster used the letter multilple times.

Not exactly an ingenious plot, but certainly a good lesson in the principles of 'caveat emptor'.  I'm not sure you're saying anything insightful regarding the case in hand though - other than perhaps a general reminder that 'there are fraudsters out there'.

I have a newspaper clipping on this particular fellow,the scams with the 1923 half were worse.    

Which 'particular fellow' are you talking about?  Is that the same guy that owns the Unicorn Penny and tried to sell an allegedly fake 1930 on eBay recently?  If not, then why bring up some random guy from the 60's?  

For me, as a researcher wading through thousands of online images, this eBay trader turned out to be an invaluable resource.  The fact that he later misidentified a fake 1930 penny is certainly less forgivable, but is probably a reflection of his limited knowledge (and perhaps a little hope) rather than malicious intent.  Indeed he wouldn't be the first person who's made that mistake before.  I don't see anything sinister or criminal here, and I know the same trader is currently offering a genuine benchmark 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse penny for sale on eBay.  

The dealer/person in question was also caught out selling a fake 1931 dropped Indian,link above,he also sold several 200L wheely Bins of Coppers,i think he knows his way around a Penny.

Interesting.  Please enlighten us further with the... what was it you said(?) ... oh, yes 'FACTS'.  Who caught him exactly? Where and when was he caught?  Please remember... no HEARSAY or anything UNSUBSTANTIATED though.    


 I included the link in this Thread,Post No. 38,ID by Eric from Drake Coins as a Fake.Before you start digging the hole any deeper prove Eric is wrong.

https://www.australian-coins.net/showthread.php?tid=5506&page=4&highlight=1931+dropped+Indian


I think the JNAA paper serves that exact purpose - proving Eric wrong.  If you disagree, please explain why.  But don't give me any more of your 'Flat Earth'-style conspiracy arguments.  Simply address the substantive points presented in the paper and tell me what you disagree with.  Oh yes, you will actually have to read the paper first.  


As far as the Wheelie Bin Coins go ask your mate,they were on Ebay last year and mentioned
 on this Forum. 

It's not for me to prove your unsubstantiated remarks.  As hard as it is sometimes to think before one speaks, if you do have something worthy to say, then be prepared to back it up.  

See: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1931-Dropped1-Ind-obv-Penny-Rarer-Than-1930-Penny-6P/124091587300?hash=item1ce46f5ae4:g:Ai8AAOSwqQBbVoEj

Tempting as it may be to subscribe to a conspiracy theory linking the Unicorn Penny to some rogue eBay trader, the truth in fact, is a lot less fanciful.

Yuri i hope it turns out well for you after all the effort and time you have put in but TBH it looks a bit dicey at the moment but as i said its all above my pay grade but i enjoy the discussion after several weeks of this Forum being in the Doldrums.

Yuri,did you read the above,its not me you have to convince,i'm a Hobby Collector who has been sucked into doing research and compiling Records on the 1930 Penny for a aging Family Friend so i am deeply interested in anything to do with 1931 Pennies...good luck with it,but to quote my Niece who is following this story,"what pretentious wanker came up with the name 'Unicorn' for an old Coin".   

Basil, it's not a coin-naming contest.  No prizes were given out for the name 'Unicorn Penny'.  The paper explains the origins of the name as agreed by some collectors to identify the coin rather than saying something awkward like "1931 dropped 1 Indian, but not the benchmark penny, the other one with the curved-base letters".  They chose the name because for decades collectors have been chasing this particular coin without knowing whether it actually existed.   It's sounds like a fitting name from that angle and there was nothing pretentious about it, although I admit it has a ring to it.   Personally, I just call it the "1931 5th variety".  As for your niece, she might avoid unnecessary embarrassment next time by asking the right questions instead of jumping to conclusions.  Isn't that what good journalists are supposed to do?  

[Basil]

Yuri,i'm not getting into a pii....contest with you,by your Posts so far you do not have a background in pre-Dec. Coins as far as i can tell,what puzzles myself is your motivation with this variety,even if it is a genuine Coin you seem to be on a single minded Crusade for some reason and let your Ego take control when someone questions your assertions,why?,what's in it for you?
I'm not the person you should be attempting to influence,i'm a Hobby collector,albeit with over 50+ years experience,i don't have a reputation to protect and i'm not trying to make a name for myself in the Coin world so my comments on this are just a general interest scenario as far as the 1930 Penny goes.
Instead of having a go at me address the concerns that some of the Coin experts on this Forum have with your Coin,for starters show that the 31 dropped Indian shown above is not a fake.
Whether you have discovered a new variety or not that article you somehow managed to have published is Schoolboy stuff,Gilbert Heyde would be spinning in his grave.