1911 Penny & 1911 Shilling Transfer Die Counterfeit

[nealeffendi]

All up close to $2000 on 8 shillings and a threepence. Not great but sometimes you lose in buying raw coins. The same PCGS submission had a 1916 MS64 florin that cost me only $331,  a 1910 MS63 shilling that cost $161, a MS62 1926 Serif Sixpence for USD 197 and a MS64 Centenary for $416. So still well in front.

[ausproofs]

All up close to $2000 on 8 shillings and a threepence. Not great but sometimes you lose in buying raw coins. The same PCGS submission had a 1916 MS64 florin that cost me only $331,  a 1910 MS63 shilling that cost $161, a MS62 1926 Serif Sixpence for USD 197 and a MS64 Centenary for $416. So still well in front.

Good to hear, also if you paid with PayPal, you might be able to make a claim. Don't let it go that easily. Good luck with it all..

[Cockatoo Coins]

The certificates for those two still aren't showing up for me on the PCGS website, would love to add the pic's to my register of fake dies they have produced.

[drakesterling]

PCGS has pulled them.

[autocoupler]

It must be close to 13 years since I purchased any predecimal silver, but just reading some of the posts in this thread, I'm starting to appreciate the street smarts I lack when it comes to keeping up with the dodgers. 

Being mainly a scrounger of predecimal penny varieties these days, I'm well aware of how coins can be identified by certain markers and various characteristics that can link them to a particular die or dies, but that's not to say I'm up to speed with any of the minting processes. 

So from a slightly naive perspective with respect to fake predecimal silver or any fakes for that matter, if back in the day, say a Mint tool room employee was having a bad day and carelessly handled a transfer die or dies causing field scratches and other dings, would it not be possible for these concave defects to be then imparted onto any number of working dies (convex), which in turn did the same (concave) to any amount of the mintage before the problem was detected? Also, could the same be said of poorly handled working dies, where concave damage is reproduced on the coinage as blobs and cuds etc?

Not trying to defend scumbag fakers and scammers, just being the devils advocate  :angel:

[Cockatoo Coins]

The issues with these particular ones is I have a 1911 shilling and a 1925 shilling, both obverses struck with the same dies and have the same marks.

[fred lever]

Hi Auto, your thinking is correct in that a badly handled master or hub or punch can create marks and that is what legitimate  "die markers" can be.
The problem here and as Neal and I showed in the article in CAB may issue, are marks that are identical and on coins that were supposedly minted  in different locations and on coins with dates separated by many years, 1911 and 1925 in this case.
Somehow a marked die or hub managed to persist overall those years and locations?
If this was true then a huge number of coins should have those marks and then they would be a common "die marker" tracing the passage of that hub/die error over the years, just like the damaged pearls on the Indian obverse pennies.
So the problem is we have a low number of coins, probably thousands, with identical marks but from those very separate sources half a planet and decades apart. THAT is the problem that needs explaining and the only logical reason is they were minted at the same time and place with a common obverse die and various reverse dies (to give different dates). We went into some reasons why this would be done in the article.
Hope this answers your question.
Cheers, Fred.

[autocoupler]

Thanks for the explanation Fred. I haven't fully read the article so that's something I need to do, and as you say, some strange goings on.  I do remember reading somewhere, where penny dies sent to Australian mints from London back in the early twenties, were used again in the late twenties or there abouts?

[fred lever]

Thanks for the explanation Fred. I haven't fully read the article so that's something I need to do, and as you say, some strange goings on.  I do remember reading somewhere, where penny dies sent to Australian mints from London back in the early twenties, were used again in the late twenties or there abouts?

Hi Again, its a long and complex story tracing the movement of masters, hubs and dies from 1910 to 1960's, many twists and turns and requires a lot of reading of the main researchers. You need tp pick the eyes out of lots of texts but this is why Bill Mulletts' "Particular Coins" is so important  because it anchors you to a time span when he worked at the mint and researched a lot of records really out of interest. 
Fred.

[nealeffendi]

The issues with these particular ones is I have a 1911 shilling and a 1925 shilling, both obverses struck with the same dies and have the same marks.

So did they come from Canada or Spain? (or is there any other sellers involved?)
Did any of them make it as far as being sent for grading? Almost certainly from one of the obverses I also got caught with.
I don't know if the forum will allow it but are we allowed to post the details of the sellers (eBay name, postal address etc) of coins determined to be genuine. So K&M, can we post the details of these honest sellers?

[Cockatoo Coins]

The issues with these particular ones is I have a 1911 shilling and a 1925 shilling, both obverses struck with the same dies and have the same marks.

So did they come from Canada or Spain? (or is there any other sellers involved?)
Did any of them make it as far as being sent for grading? Almost certainly from one of the obverses I also got caught with.
I don't know if the forum will allow it but are we allowed to post the details of the sellers (eBay name, postal address etc) of coins determined to be genuine. So K&M, can we post the details of these honest sellers?

They came from durospain, both were graded but have since had their certificates cancelled.