1911 Penny & 1911 Shilling Transfer Die Counterfeit

echidna · March 05, 2018, 07:50:59 PM

From the NGC website:

"Transfer Die Counterfeits have become increasingly commonplace in the last few decades. Unfortunately, this type of fake can also be the most deceptive. A genuine coin is "sacrificed" to create a die that is an exact mirror image of the coin. This includes any and all marks, scratches or other issues on the surface of the genuine coin. As a result, every fake struck from these counterfeit dies will have the same depressions"

[img=628x628]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/echidna/20180303_1911penny800-_1_.jpg[/img]
[img=628x627]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/echidna/20180303_1911penn800y-_3_.jpg[/img]

This is a Transfer Die Counterfeit.
It was sent to PCGS who identified it.
Otherwise I'd be none the wiser.

Note the unusual "extra" rim especially under MP of IMP on the obverse.
Similar rim issues can be seen on many of these fakes.

Also note the obverse marks - under D of DG on the obverse.
The exact same marks can be seen on other 1911 pennies from the same batch of fakes.
And I've seen a few of these around for sale.
Sadly & ironically some are NGC & PCGS graded.
DON'T BUY THEM.

Goldseeker · March 05, 2018, 08:26:12 PM

Any chance of increasing the size of the lettering in the above please.

I am using a magnifying glass to read what has been posted.

Basil · March 05, 2018, 08:41:40 PM

Where will it all end,stunning copy.I think that Coin has been posted in another Thread on this Forum stating its a fake last year.
This is my best 2011(if i haven't mixed the pictures up).Fingers crossed its genuine...

echidna · March 05, 2018, 08:42:25 PM

https://i.imgur.com/1phNEVq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pQfbreT.jpg

High res images.
Let me know if there is a problem with them.

autocoupler · March 05, 2018, 10:47:29 PM

:shock: echidnas obverse even has a patch of virdigris and a few stains thrown in for free. As Basil says, where will it all end? If someone was able to list all the die markers on these fakes and write a book, it would eventually become a coin bible, and the author would then have a job for life keeping it up to date :zomby:

echidna · March 05, 2018, 11:03:45 PM

The list so far:

penny 1911, 1936
threepence 1917,1927,1914,1923 , 1936
shillings 1911, 1914, 1916, 1925 .

Unicorn · March 06, 2018, 11:17:55 AM

Quote from: 'Goldseeker' pid='114347' dateline='1520243772'Any chance of increasing the size of the lettering in the above please.

I am using a magnifying glass to read what has been posted.

Hi Goldie, here's Echi's text from the first post. Hope this helps.

Great thread Echi btw.

From the NGC website:

"Transfer Die Counterfeits have become increasingly commonplace in the last few decades. Unfortunately, this type of fake can also be the most deceptive. A genuine coin is "sacrificed" to create a die that is an exact mirror image of the coin. This includes any and all marks, scratches or other issues on the surface of the genuine coin. As a result, every fake struck from these counterfeit dies will have the same depressions"
This is a Transfer Die Counterfeit.
It was sent to PCGS who identified it.
Otherwise I'd be none the wiser.

Note the unusual "extra" rim especially under MP of IMP on the obverse.
Similar rim issues can be seen on many of these fakes.

Also note the obverse marks - under D of DG on the obverse.
The exact same marks can be seen on other 1911 pennies from the same batch of fakes.
And I've seen a few of these around for sale.
Sadly & ironically some are NGC & PCGS graded.
DON'T BUY THEM.

Mister T · March 06, 2018, 09:21:54 PM

Quote from: 'echidna' pid='114353' dateline='1520253225'The list so far:

penny 1911, 1936
threepence 1917,1927,1914,1923 , 1936
shillings 1911, 1914, 1916, 1925 .

Got pictures of the rest?

echidna · March 07, 2018, 08:51:02 PM

Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='114361' dateline='1520333514'
Quote from: 'echidna' pid='114353' dateline='1520253225'The list so far:

penny 1911, 1936
threepence 1917,1927,1914,1923 , 1936
shillings 1911, 1914, 1916, 1925 .

Got pictures of the rest?

If anyone wants more info probably best to send me a PM.

Cockatoo Coins · March 08, 2018, 02:40:44 PM

Pcgs's response to the forum posts,
I am currently out of the country grading Chinese coins in Asia. Fakes are now quite common in many parts of the world, and rampant in China. As far as counterfeit Australian coins go, there are fakes going around but they are not all that deceptive to the trained person. The only forum we have seen to date (CCF), states that NGC has graded a few of these counterfeits- not PCGS. I have read the thread but I cannot confirm this thread statement at this time, but we are quite able to distinguish these fakes. The reason we do not disclose how to tell the fakes from the genuine coins, is that counterfeiters read the forums and correct the die markers that we have discovered. NGC is making a huge mistake in disclosing this information to the public, and they are doing it for cheap publicity purposes. The PCGS guarantee is unmatched in the industry and your fellow collectors and investors should feel safe buying PCGS coins. I have been studying counterfeits for PCGS for 29 years, and PCGS is the leading expert in counterfeit detection. We maintain an impressive library of counterfeit photos that is unmatched by any third party grading service, are available to every PCGS grader.
Best regards, Mike Sargent

Basil · March 08, 2018, 03:26:31 PM

Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='114383' dateline='1520482244'Pcgs's response to the forum posts,

Thanks for making the effort to post,bit of a waffle from the Mike guy thou.
Obviously more to come on this matter.

Cockatoo Coins · March 08, 2018, 03:58:16 PM

Mike is a pretty good authority on counterfeit coins, he doesn't see them as a problem for their graders which is a good thing. If you do however have any evidence of suspected copies in PCGS holders (as stated on a few occasions) I wouldn't mind sending cert numbers to him to have a look at. As the only example on CCF was in NGC i dont think he was too concerned about PCGS's reputation.

echidna · March 08, 2018, 08:54:25 PM

Three different 1911 shillings all with the exact same scratch.
Even the little dot to the right of the scratch is the same.

Pics were converted to greyscale to eliminate the fake tone.

Cockatoo Coins · March 09, 2018, 07:49:21 AM

If anyone has any in PCGS holders I would be more than happy to send them back for you, I have pulled all examples I had in auctions and in the safe to send back. Now in complete agreement they are 100% counterfeit no doubt at all.

nealeffendi · March 09, 2018, 08:14:36 AM

Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='114385' dateline='1520486896'Mike is a pretty good authority on counterfeit coins, he doesn't see them as a problem for their graders which is a good thing. If you do however have any evidence of suspected copies in PCGS holders (as stated on a few occasions) I wouldn't mind sending cert numbers to him to have a look at. As the only example on CCF was in NGC i dont think he was too concerned about PCGS's reputation.

Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='114396' dateline='1520543961'If anyone has any in PCGS holders I would be more than happy to send them back for you, I have pulled all examples I had in auctions and in the safe to send back. Now in complete agreement they are 100% counterfeit no doubt at all.

Seems like your another one of us who was ripped off by these fakes. How many coins and what years did you get slabbed? I purchased my first fake 3 years ago so I'm wondering how many fakes are out there either raw or in slabs. The population report might take a big hit if a number of MS grade fakes are pulled.
Did you buy them from Canada or Europe? Perhaps a list needs to be made of both the known fakes and of those selling them.
Also as PCGS will now be seriously out of pocket they have an incentive to use their power to get the police involved in going after the counterfeiters. Darn hard for us individuals in Australia to deal with Canadian/US/European police (and the sellers might have been counting on that).