Buyer Beware?

[p.gee]

I was reading an article on a coin dealers web site last night re. a recent auction and I found the following exert interesting.

"What I did think was interesting is that some of the notes that had been "recycled" (offered and passed in via a fairly recent sale) had been pressed in the meantime. This type of amateur enhancement isn't missed by anyone that tracks the serial numbers of notes offered for sale via auction and knows how to grade, however a novice that accepts the grade and description provided could certainly come unstuck under those circumstances. I saw one "Uncirculated" note that was far from it just a few short months ago!"

This raised a lot of questions for me.
Is it o.k. to press notes to enhance the grade?
Does the auction house have any obligations here or would they even know?
Can they tell if a note has been pressed and do they have an obligation to tell purchasers?
Does the coin dealer who noticed it have any obligations here?
Do any coin associations have an obligation here to do anything?
Or is it all just buyer beware?

[Mister T]

I think it all falls into the same category as cleaning coins, except with notes it doesn't seem like there's any notion of stopping further damage.

[trout]

I think it all falls into the same category as cleaning coins, except with notes it doesn't seem like there's any notion of stopping further damage.

the situation with banknotes is pretty much the same as it was for coins prior to the acceptance of TPG's.
The TPG's act pretty much as Umpires in the coin game now, Unfortunately the banknote game is still a rafferties rules affair at the moment and it is very much a case of "caveat emptor".
Buying from a reputable source with a good return policy is pretty much essential if you are not prepared to run the risk of getting a "Lemon" :ok:

[echidna]

Dealers are under no obligation to let buyers know if a coin or banknote has been cleaned, even if they know its been cleaned. This includes ANDA dealers.

[trout]

Dealers are under no obligation to let buyers know if a coin or banknote has been cleaned, even if they know its been cleaned. This includes ANDA dealers.

Yes they do, Any dealer that knowingly sells an altered/cleaned coin or note without letting the buyer know doesn't deserve to be affiliated with ANDA.
Most collectors take a dealers word as gospel and  lying by omission renders any dealer morally and ethically bankrupt IMHO.

[echidna]

Dealers are under no obligation to let buyers know if a coin or banknote has been cleaned, even if they know its been cleaned. This includes ANDA dealers.

Yes they do, Any dealer that knowingly sells an altered/cleaned coin or note without letting the buyer know doesn't deserve to be affiliated with ANDA.
Most collectors take a dealers word as gospel and  lying by omission renders any dealer morally and ethically bankrupt IMHO.

Agreed.
There is an ethical obligation, however no legal obligation.

[p.gee]

I would have though an auction house or dealer that omits to tell their customers these things would eventually run out of customers and chase people away from this hobby, not doing anyone in the industry any good. I no there will always be people trying to make a quick buck, but surely something as blatant as the  above would cause people in the industry i.e.anda dealers to speak up. After all they ultimately loose out too, if there are less people in this hobby.
Just thinking about it, I suppose the dealer that wrote the article was doing their bit to inform and help nubies like me. So he/she deserves credit for that.

[trout]

Maybe IF ANDA actually did something about the shonky operators within it's ranks then Maybe just Maybe collectors could have some guarantee that what they are paying for from an ANDA dealer is what they are actually receiving.
From what I have personally experienced when dealing with ANDA accredited sellers is that the majority of them DO have a good code of ethical behaviour But there are still a few "Weeds" that need to be removed from the garden, the trouble is that some of these "Weeds" are quite well established :angel:

[Unicorn]

... the trouble is that some of these "Weeds" are quite well established :angel:

Too true Trout ..... blobilop little weeeeeeed .....

[trout]

Good analogy Uni, Bill and Ben are a lot like newbie collectors :angel:
oops look out here comes the gardener :laugh2:

[stevo1962]

I would have though an auction house or dealer that omits to tell their customers these things would eventually run out of customers and chase people away from this hobby, not doing anyone in the industry any good. I no there will always be people trying to make a quick buck, but surely something as blatant as the  above would cause people in the industry i.e.anda dealers to speak up. After all they ultimately loose out too, if there are less people in this hobby.
Just thinking about it, I suppose the dealer that wrote the article was doing their bit to inform and help nubies like me. So he/she deserves credit for that.

All auction houses selling raw coins will be auctioning cleaned coins whether they are identified as cleaned or not and as the high grade raw population diminishes
over time from being put into slabs I can see the situation only getting worse.I've been caught plenty of times buying online as it's easy to hide the details of coin
surfaces with trick photography

[trout]

Numisbid is one auction house that always lets the bidders know if a coin has been cleaned and they are always described as such in the listings:good:
If Walter can do this then why don't the others follow suit?

[serenitystan]

Buyer beware. The reality is that just about all dealers and auction houses over grade banknotes and coins. Which note would sell? Crisp Unc or Crisp Unc with a light hint of a centre bend. Pcgs currency and pmg are the best thing today for banknote collectors. Hope they put all cheats out of business.

[wwwww]

Numisbid is one auction house that always lets the bidders know if a coin has been cleaned and they are always described as such in the listings:good:
If Walter can do this then why don't the others follow suit?

That's why we get so few raw consignments, almost all our consignments are TPG graded already - as we're not willing to compromise our ethics, vendors with problem coins sell them elsewhere to get a better price (we also have higher commission for raw coins). Because we focus on certified coins that's not a problem for us but most raw coin auction houses wouldn't get any business if they started honestly describing their coins.

[trout]

most raw coin auction houses wouldn't get any business if they started honestly describing their coins.

This is quite Sad really.