Possible 2014 $1 Mule

[trout]

From what i have been lead to believe for a double headded or double tailed coin to be minted one of the dies has to be re engeneered  to enable its production.
As these were never part of the mints production schedule then these coins Must have been deliberately produced Without the mints approval which would render the coins illegitimate and possibly a modern  forgery.
This being the case then PCGS has really NO business ligitimising these by giving them a Clean grade.

[Fulvio]

PCGS' position is that if a coin is struck with original dies, officially or otherwise, then it is a genuine coin. The person pushing the ON switch does not affect a coin's authenticity, just its legality.

OK, I can see that position, and it may in practical terms be the only view they could take.

But...

Suppose for a moment someone steals a set of dies. Or, given the technology now available, reverse-engineers their own dies. You know, like the Chinese mints do. PCGS would still grade counterfeits they knocked up in their shed with them? Seriously? :dodgy:

Clearly there has to be a line somewhere. I just don't think these things are on the right side of it though.

[Bigfellani5]

Pcgs are not in the game of authenticating coins, detecting mint sport or anything else. They are there to grade what is n front of them.

Now the ram has verified error and admitted to mistakes but have not with held ( to my knowledge) and coin sent to them because it was an error, mint sport or other wise. The have returned every one ( to my knowledge). If they were considered forgeries or illegal then they would be obligated to pass it on to the fed. By not doing so must legitimise the error.

Devils advocate here!

[trout]

Pcgs are not in the game of authenticating coins, detecting mint sport or anything else. They are there to grade what is n front of them.

Now the ram has verified error and admitted to mistakes but have not with held ( to my knowledge) and coin sent to them because it was an error, mint sport or other wise. The have returned every one ( to my knowledge). If they were considered forgeries or illegal then they would be obligated to pass it on to the fed. By not doing so must legitimise the error.

Devils advocate here!

PCGS are very much "into" authenticating coins,.
In fact that is one of their Primary functions.

[drakesterling]

Pcgs are not in the game of authenticating coins, detecting mint sport or anything else. They are there to grade what is n front of them.

Now the ram has verified error and admitted to mistakes but have not with held ( to my knowledge) and coin sent to them because it was an error, mint sport or other wise. The have returned every one ( to my knowledge). If they were considered forgeries or illegal then they would be obligated to pass it on to the fed. By not doing so must legitimise the error.

Devils advocate here!

PCGS are very much "into" authenticating coins,.
In fact that is one of their Primary functions.

As trout said, PCGS is certainly all about authenticating coins. But they must also certify anything put in front of them that falls within their guidelines of what they grade. Coins, yes. Medals and fantasies, yes. Restrikes, yes. Coins with a bit of (so far unproven) mystery around their creation, yes.

[trout]

PCGS has a good reputation for authenticating coins But by certifying these "Mint Sports" they are damaging that reputation for some collectors.
With Medals, Fantasies and restrikes PCGS usually describe these as such when you look up the cert verification eg.
 https://www.pcgs.com/cert/30317232

To give a coin with a dubious origin a Clean grade like the recent double headed/tailed coins that are well documented to exist purely by deliberate tampering and are not a random error seems to me to be outside PCGS's original charter.
Maybe PCGS should rethink their position with these and others like the recent spate of US coins struck on nails and label them as a "mint sport" variety.

[autocoupler]

From what i have been lead to believe for a double headded or double tailed coin to be minted one of the dies has to be re engeneered  to enable its production.

Just to clarify, and probably asking the obvious, is it physically impossible for either die to be accidentally fitted in place of the other?

Not knowing anything about the actual engineering of the individual bits, I thought in the past there was nothing to prevent the  press operator from accidentally switching dies or fitting two of a kind :dodgy:

[Mister T]

Just to clarify, and probably asking the obvious, is it physically impossible for either die to be accidentally fitted in place of the other?

Not knowing anything about the actual engineering of the individual bits, I thought in the past there was nothing to prevent the  press operator from accidentally switching dies or fitting two of a kind :dodgy:

I'm sure people have said that it is (something like a square fitting for the top and a hexagon for the bottom or something like that) but I don't know just how advanced it is.

[Unicorn]

Yes, I've read somewhere about that too.

I'm pretty sure that Goldie and Fulvio probably know how it all works, so hopefully they'll be able to resolve that one.

[Fulvio]

Yes, I've read somewhere about that too.

I'm pretty sure that Goldie and Fulvio probably know how it all works, so hopefully they'll be able to resolve that one.

All the information I've seen has been second-hand, but does say they're keyed and won't fit the wrong mount in the high-speed presses. The older presses used for NCLT/Proofs are another matter though. Also easier to get access to, since these areas are usually empty.

I do intend taking this up in person next time I'm up there. You just can't get a straight answer out of anyone by phone/email.

[autocoupler]

Thanks for that, one and all :good:

[Bigfellani5]

Pcgs are not in the game of authenticating coins, detecting mint sport or anything else. They are there to grade what is n front of them.

Now the ram has verified error and admitted to mistakes but have not with held ( to my knowledge) and coin sent to them because it was an error, mint sport or other wise. The have returned every one ( to my knowledge). If they were considered forgeries or illegal then they would be obligated to pass it on to the fed. By not doing so must legitimise the error.

Devils advocate here!

PCGS are very much "into" authenticating coins,.
In fact that is one of their Primary functions.

As trout said, PCGS is certainly all about authenticating coins. But they must also certify anything put in front of them that falls within their guidelines of what they grade. Coins, yes. Medals and fantasies, yes. Restrikes, yes. Coins with a bit of (so far unproven) mystery around their creation, yes.

Devils advocate here but if you are going to believe a private companies view on the authenticity of a item then you have to believe everyone's view on the authencity of something. My view as an industry expert is just as valid as pcgs. Their fine print says they will not be held liable if they are wrong about the authencity of something. There are even things the won't authenticate and mention on their slabs because they are as they say "common" including many many USA varieties. I have contacted them in the past about recognising some rarer die varieties on Australian pennies and was told they don't do that. It is therefore selective authenticating or opinion giving. As mentioned earlier in the thread we doubt pcgs would authenticate this 2014 $1 mule. At least I have made the call that I think it is a mule so I guess authenticated? There have been many discussions here about breaking slabs to send back and try and get higher grades....with success, which I guess shows pcgs are not always right!

Based on all that they give opinions without liability. I think if falls back to the issuing authority to authenticate their coins, not a private company. They might be the opinion that most trust but imho an opinion does not mean authencity

[drakesterling]

Their fine print says they will not be held liable if they are wrong about the authencity of something.

I'm trying to find where in the fine print it states this, but all I could find was PCGS' guarantee of grade and authenticity, where they state that the collector is entitled to certain compensation if PCGS has made a mistake about authentication.
https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

I know this is off-topic, but I think it's important to call out comments where those comments can be open to misinterpretation. This is how rumours, misconceptions, conspiracy theories, and misunderstandings happen.

The existence of these suspicious mint errors is a case in point: People are already talking about them as though it is a hard, cold fact that the coins are stolen property, illegal, or illegitimate, when in fact all this talk of "mint sport" started off on the numismatic rumour mill.

Like Bigfellani5, I will also play devil's advocate: None of these instances of alleged mint sport are proven (at the moment), so there is no reason (yet) to refuse to grade these so-called mint sport coins. These coins might be suspicious, but suspicion is not enough to convict.

If, in the future, these coins are proven to be stolen property and are ordered to be returned to RAM, PCGS will treat these coins very differently. Someone just has to let them know. Ultimately, PCGS acts on facts not rumours started on an internet coin forum.

Eric

[Fulvio]

My view as an industry expert is just as valid as pcgs.

Absolutely! Which has always been one of my peeves about TPGs. Suppose I'm really good at grading. My opinion is just that, an opinion. Then one day I land a job at PCGS. Instantly my same opinion becomes 'official' gospel. That's just not right, IMO.

Ultimately the responsibility lies with the purchaser to grade a coin and pay accordingly. Abrogating that responsibility may make sense to those lacking the skills to do the job themselves, but it really isn't a good thing when it becomes the sole path.

As for this being a mint sport, yes, its only opinion at this stage. The proof will be if none surface in circulation, leaving only one or two in perfect condition.

[trout]

If, in the future, these coins are proven to be stolen property and are ordered to be returned to RAM,

RAM will never do this because they will be admitting that their staff stole from them and their security is crap, Not going to happen.
You, Me and the Dog next door know that these recent double header/tail coins are "Dodgy" and I have No idea why you are trying to defend this sort of crap.

Devils advocate here but if you are going to believe a private companies view on the authenticity of a item then you have to believe everyone's view on the authencity of something

We used to do this and the shonky mob shafted many a collector.

I'm trying to find where in the fine print it states this, but all I could find was PCGS' guarantee of grade and authenticity, where they state that the collector is entitled to certain compensation if PCGS has made a mistake about authentication.

PCGS actually DO guarantee the authenticity AND the grade of any coin that they encapsulate, Also compensation IS available IF the coin is found to be fake or wrongly graded.
This Isn't the case with any RAW coin purchase.