Grading consistency

[autocoupler]

Was looking at a coin graded aU / UNC that one of our local auction houses has listed. While searching through past results of another auction house I discovered the exact same coin had been sold by them two years previous and was graded EF / gEF.

Taking a moderate view you could say it's just a matter of differing  perceptions between two individuals. For experienced collectors it may not be an issue as anyone with the ability to grade accurately and who knows the market will decide what it is and bid accordingly. On the other hand, for the uninitiated still tiptoeing through the grading maze and using catalogue guides as a reference, there is the danger of making a blunder if the coin has been graded on the optimistic side.

Thinking about it, the issue of differing opinions leading to inconsistent grading, even if arrived at by using ANDA guidelines, would not necessarily be confined to our adjectival system. The same dangers must surely be relevant to the Sheldon system, as individuals within that system attempt to conform to its guidelines, or as personnel come and go.

[Nightparrot]

Was looking at a coin graded aU / UNC that one of our local auction houses has listed. While searching through past results of another auction house I discovered the exact same coin had been sold by them two years previous and was graded EF / gEF.

Taking a moderate view you could say it's just a matter of differing  perceptions between two individuals. For experienced collectors it may not be an issue as anyone with the ability to grade accurately and who knows the market will decide what it is and bid accordingly. On the other hand, for the uninitiated still tiptoeing through the grading maze and using catalogue guides as a reference, there is the danger of making a blunder if the coin has been graded on the optimistic side.

Thinking about it, the issue of differing opinions leading to inconsistent grading, even if arrived at by using ANDA guidelines, would not necessarily be confined to our adjectival system. The same dangers must surely be relevant to the Sheldon system, as individuals within that system attempt to conform to its guidelines, or as personnel come and go.

All fair points.

PCGS get around this by using a consensus approach. This is from their website:

Each expert works independently in a controlled environment that provides optimum conditions for studying the characteristics and physical condition of each coin. A series of graders enters independent determinations in a computer database until a consensus is reached and the final grade is assigned. To augment their high level of experience, our graders can refer to comprehensive grading sets of U.S. and international coins in order to adhere to PCGS grading standards.

[robbiegal]

my hubby bought an choice unc crown (graded by the owner at the time) and when he submitted it back to the same auction house they graded it as e/f

[Nightparrot]

my hubby bought an choice unc crown (graded by the owner at the time) and when he submitted it back to the same auction house they graded it as e/f

Yes, some of my worst purchases have been thru auction houses, both in Aust and the US. Makes you wary.....

[markn]

my hubby bought an choice unc crown (graded by the owner at the time) and when he submitted it back to the same auction house they graded it as e/f

That's exactly why you'd get a coin graded by a TPG.  Sure, PCGS and NGC are not perfect but they don't care what they grade your coin, as long as they believe they have applied their grading standard consistently.  Compare this with a dealer whose profit margin is padded out by selling your coin as an UNC and buying it back as EF.  Of course it's dealers like this who poo poo TPG graded coins the most publicly because they realise that if they gain market traction it's the end of their way of doing business.  Bring it on I say.

[Oldcoinchest]

Very interesting topic, the way I see it as previously mentioned is that opinions differ, the only one that really matters is your own and what you grade the product as. By using your experience and book knowledge to make an estimate and if still unsure (for your sake and others) drop a grade as a general rule (buying or selling). if auction houses buy a low grades (ef) and sell the same product as Unc, they are just flat out crooks. A good dealer will buy as Unc and sell as Unc and use their skills of negotiations as their profit tool and not the changing of grades. So I think learning how to grade and using your own opinion is key not to falling into any traps. Im still learning as dealers who have been in the game for 50 years plus would say. This is the message I keep getting in my research of grading so make your own rules and guidelines and stick to them

[trout]

That's exactly why you'd get a coin graded by a TPG.  Sure, PCGS and NGC are not perfect but they don't care what they grade your coin, as long as they believe they have applied their grading standard consistently.  Compare this with a dealer whose profit margin is padded out by selling your coin as an UNC and buying it back as EF.  Of course it's dealers like this who poo poo TPG graded coins the most publicly because they realise that if they gain market traction it's the end of their way of doing business.  Bring it on I say.

Well said Mark :good:
TPG coins ARE getting slowly traction in the market and it IS keeping the buggers honest because the coin is graded by an impartial grader.
I know neither NGC or PCGS are perfect But they are miles in front of the average dealer that can't even pick up a cleaned coin and quite frankly "Guesses" a grade to suit their own agenda.
Before you say anything, YES I was an adamant slab hater until it dawned on me that getting my coins slabbed was the ONLY way of having them impartially and accurately graded.

With the amount of fakes and BS grades out there I would be a bloody fool not to get my "Core" coins authenticated and graded by PCGS and NGC :ok:

[serial]

I expect to eventually hold nothing but graded coins as they are easier to handle/record/value/sell/store than most other coins.
This is a huge thing given the sheer size of my collection but I am talking in 30 years time so no hurry.
having said that I will probably keep at least 1 raw typeset of pre decimal and decimal proof/unc coins just for personal enjoyment

[nealeffendi]

Very interesting topic, the way I see it as previously mentioned is that opinions differ, the only one that really matters is your own and what you grade the product as. By using your experience and book knowledge to make an estimate and if still unsure (for your sake and others) drop a grade as a general rule (buying or selling). if auction houses buy a low grades (ef) and sell the same product as Unc, they are just flat out crooks. A good dealer will buy as Unc and sell as Unc and use their skills of negotiations as their profit tool and not the changing of grades. So I think learning how to grade and using your own opinion is key not to falling into any traps. Im still learning as dealers who have been in the game for 50 years plus would say. This is the message I keep getting in my research of grading so make your own rules and guidelines and stick to them

Often-times you have to rely on the dealers grading as most of us cannot  afford the time/effort/money to fly across the country (or to the US or UK) to inspect a possible purchase). The catalogue images and descriptions then become your main tool of determining grade. So you have to rely on the truthfulness and grading experience of the seller. Or you can rely on the impartiality of the first tier TPGs  in knowing that the coin is genuine, isn't cleaned and  the grading will generally be within a point of the true grade (if not spot on).
TPGs will crowd out the dealers who deal in overgraded/doctored coins as   the price differences will make any seller of a quality coin get it slabbed and the dipped and other problem coins will predominate in the raw market that is left. Who would be left to buy raw coins from the dodgy dealers then?

[WavyTwenty]

With the amount of fakes and BS grades out there I would be a bloody fool not to get my "Core" coins authenticated and graded by PCGS and NGC :ok:

I am in agreement with you here.  Two of my core coins have turned out to be not so stellar.  I'm thinking of ripping them out of the case and selling "as-is".

Unfortunately one was even brought from a dealer who frequented the forum before this one.  It was cleaned (they both were).  Whether he did it or he didn't know it makes you think twice about using them again.

Wavy20

[trout]

I'm thinking of ripping them out of the case and selling "as-is".

Why not leave them in their respective slabs , At least they will be marked as being genuine and because they have been cleaned it would be the honest way to offer them up for sale :ok:
That's what this "Grading consistency" is all about.
A NO BS assessment and you get what you pay for :ok:

[autocoupler]

I'm still on the fence but starting to topple re raw V slab. There're pros and cons to both sides. I've attempted to come up with a method of rating using the following criteria of positives and negatives based on my wants and gut feelings. No doubt others will hold differing views. And had a bit of trouble Betty trying to do columns. :dodgy:
 
 (1) Vested Interest. Sheldon P, Adj. N                                  
(2) Differing opinion. Sheldon N, Adj. N                              
(3) Protection. Sheldon P, Adj. N                                          
(4) Post encasement issues i.e. verdigris etc. Sheldon N, Adj. P
 (5) Cost of buying slabbed. Sizable amounts paid. Is it sustainable? Sheldon N, Adj. P
 (6) Perceived value if not slabbed. Sheldon P, Adj. N      
(7) Storage i.e. 200 coins in album V's 200 slabs. Sheldon N, Adj. P                    
 ( Resale if creditable grade. Sheldon P, Adj. P                  
(9) Resale if not creditable grade i.e. loss of slabbing costs. Sheldon N, Adj. P                            
(10) Personal enjoyment. More positive connection if raw. Sheldon N, Adj. P

[Oldcoinchest]

Often-times you have to rely on the dealers grading as most of us cannot  afford the time/effort/money to fly across the country (or to the US or UK) to inspect a possible purchase). The catalogue images and descriptions then become your main tool of determining grade. So you have to rely on the truthfulness and grading experience of the seller. Or you can rely on the impartiality of the first tier TPGs  in knowing that the coin is genuine, isn't cleaned and  the grading will generally be within a point of the true grade (if not spot on).
TPGs will crowd out the dealers who deal in overgraded/doctored coins as   the price differences will make any seller of a quality coin get it slabbed and the dipped and other problem coins will predominate in the raw market that is left. Who would be left to buy raw coins from the dodgy dealers then?
[/quote]

Im not sure what you mean? who would be left? who would want to buy dodgy coins? Maybe someone but just make sure its not you. I think you missed my point of trying not to get yourself into a position where you are relying on other people, dealers or graders unless you trust them. If your unsure or have doubt you should be on the side of caution. You say most of us don't have the time, effort or money to inspect the coin. If you don't take the time or effort then you run the risk of blowing some money that you say most don't have which equals a bad investment. When buying coins where 1 or 2 grades in difference is $100-$200-$500-$1000 it may be worth the effort. For me same applies with $1-$2-$10 difference. Im just saying its black and white. If your unknown to trust them or are buying off someone unknown and cant see it for yourself you run the risk. I understand it shouldn't be that way but that's the reality of the way the world can work when you rely on the unknown. See it for yourself, be on the side of caution or give it a miss. The choice is yours

[nealeffendi]

OCC,what I mean is that the dealers of raw coins are getting stuck in a smaller and smaller market. The dishonesty and/or poor grading assessment skills of so many dealers in the past has led to many buyers paying a premium for slabbed coins and a discount for raw coins (in the US raw coins now sell for only 30% of the price of a similar slabbed coin, coins with problems will sell for even less and might get 10% of the price of a similar grade slabbed coin). As more good coins get slabbed then the pool of raw coins is drained of the good stuff and the pool becomes richer in the unslabbable stuff. At some point it will become too toxic for most buyers to risk and the only buyers left will be those who like to polish their coins,:icon_cry: All serious collectors (and investors) will then only be buying slabbed coins, lower value raw coins from impeccable reputation sellers or coins that they can properly inspect.
OCC, can you honestly say that you would never be in a position to buy sight unseen? Do you only buy from sellers in your  home town? Because if you have ever absentee bid on an auction or ebay then you have not properly inspected the coin.
Also you cannot in practice err on the side of caution or give it a miss because to do so not only avoids the bad buys but the great bargains. I've lost a few thousand on bad buys but made multiples of that on the winning punts. Those good punts include buys from the US, UK, Canada, HK, China, Korea, Japan, France, Greece and about 20 other countries. It would be an impossible effort to go inspect the coins and at least for now the pool of raw coins makes the punts worthwhile. In another few years I might have to stop taking those punts as the supply turns toxic and only rely on the TPG graded sellers.

[stevo1962]

I've lost a few thousand on bad buys but made multiples of that on the winning punts. Those good punts include buys from the US, UK, Canada, HK, China, Korea, Japan, France, Greece and about 20 other countries. It would be an impossible effort to go inspect the coins and at least for now the pool of raw coins makes the punts worthwhile. In another few years I might have to stop taking those punts as the supply turns toxic and only rely on the TPG graded sellers.

I agree Neal and have had the same experience by taking a punt have been able to end up in front by miles but have had a few nasty surprises but all my best coins head of to get slabbed and have duely increased in value because of it