1920 Dot over top scroll English

[nealeffendi]

Ah, right you are.
pholland@thorleaf.com is given as his email at the end of the "Master dies and tools from the Royal Mint for Australian pennies and halfpennies of George V" article in the JNAA.

Thanks, I should of realised that people now put their email addresses in articles now.

[Mister T]

No worries.

[Basil]

Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18

[nealeffendi]

Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18

Both coins have the more common of the obverse dies (the rim groove above RITT). The 2nd coin also has a die clash that is consistent with the die clash of the dot below die found with the grooved obverse.
He is dreaming if he thinks he will get the price he is asking for.
I have had emails from contacts who have been told about English obverse dies with No Dot, Double Dot and Dot over Top. All that is left is for a claim of dot below top scroll or dots above both top and bottom scroll.:scratch_one-s_head:

[stevo1962]

Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA

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[echidna]

Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA

need better photos to ID it

[stevo1962]

Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA

need better photos to ID it

Behold better photos for identification

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[nealeffendi]

Hi everybody,could someone please ID this coin for me.It has a dot over the top scroll but that's all I can see. TIA

need better photos to ID it

Behold better photos for identification
The coin is a Dot Over Top.
It has a lovely distinctive die marker on the lower half of the right leg of the 3rd A.

A very scarce coin.

[Basil]

Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18

Both coins have the more common of the obverse dies (the rim groove above RITT). The 2nd coin also has a die clash that is consistent with the die clash of the dot below die found with the grooved obverse.
He is dreaming if he thinks he will get the price he is asking for.
I have had emails from contacts who have been told about English obverse dies with No Dot, Double Dot and Dot over Top. All that is left is for a claim of dot below top scroll or dots above both top and bottom scroll.:scratch_one-s_head:

Hi Again...are they both dot-unders with the filled die or is the first one a possible no dots.? TIA.

[nealeffendi]

Interesting Coin if thats a dot above the top scroll,this bloke has a couple of English Obs. listed,i can't see any die cracks but has that rim thing on top of the crown.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Australia-Penny-No-Dots-London-Die-gFine-almost-5-pearls-Rare-/251353445263?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a85d5338f&_uhb=1


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-No-Dots-London-Die-Australia-Penny-gFine-almost-6-pearls-and-Rare-/251113381144?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a77861d18

Both coins have the more common of the obverse dies (the rim groove above RITT). The 2nd coin also has a die clash that is consistent with the die clash of the dot below die found with the grooved obverse.
He is dreaming if he thinks he will get the price he is asking for.
I have had emails from contacts who have been told about English obverse dies with No Dot, Double Dot and Dot over Top. All that is left is for a claim of dot below top scroll or dots above both top and bottom scroll.:scratch_one-s_head:

Hi Again...are they both dot-unders with the filled die or is the first one a possible no dots.? TIA.

It isn't possible to be 100% sure when trying to prove a negative, but I examined about 60 coins last month with the rim groove and for the reverse I found that all but 3 had either a dot (often faint) or a distinct die clash. The 3 exceptions were fairly low grade and battered, so most likely to be dot below.
Until I see a 1920 English with a different obverse or reverse working die to the 3 known pairs I have to go with the odds that both those coins are Dot Below English.
I should add that the problem isn't a filled die but that the dot was weakly punched and normal circulation wear knocked the dot about. If die fill was the problem then the coins with the clashed die (spurs) would be the coins to mostly suffer a lack of visible dot. But weak/missing dots are random between early and late die stage coins and mostly related to how worn, battered, green and stained the coins are.

[Basil]

It isn't possible to be 100% sure when trying to prove a negative, but I examined about 60 coins last month with the rim groove and for the reverse I found that all but 3 had either a dot (often faint) or a distinct die clash. The 3 exceptions were fairly low grade and battered, so most likely to be dot below.
Until I see a 1920 English with a different obverse or reverse working die to the 3 known pairs I have to go with the odds that both those coins are Dot Below English.

I should add that the problem isn't a filled die but that the dot was weakly punched and normal circulation wear knocked the dot about. If die fill was the problem then the coins with the clashed die (spurs) would be the coins to mostly suffer a lack of visible dot. But weak/missing dots are random between early and late die stage coins and mostly related to how worn, battered, green and stained the coins are.
[/quote]

Thanks for Info.,very helpful, i've never bothered much about 1920's over the years,only thing i was ever interested in was whether there was a dot over the top scroll or not but since i have a bit of spare  time i'm starting to take an interest in the English Obverse.

[stevo1962]

Just wondering if this 1920 penny is anything special.It
seems to just have a dot over the bottom scroll

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[nealeffendi]

Hi Steve
Your coin is from the most commonly found die pair of the dot aboves. It accounted for 90 of the 204 dot aboves I've added since Nov '11. It has an identifying die marker of a dot to the left of the fork of Y. The coin is from the early-mid die stage as the  filling of the inner ring from 3 to 5 o'clock isn't too extensive.
Very ordinary grade, a little grotty but no serious faults.

[robbiegal]

so is the translation to all that - the coin is a single dot above and not a die filed double?
cheers Robbie

ps - is the die marker the small cud on inside of the fork of the Y - top left side?
this one has been a bug bear for me
all other opinions deem it a die filled double dot
the lumpy  reverse surface doesn't help matters either

[nealeffendi]

Hello Robbiegal
No, Steves coin is a dot above bottom scroll (I know I shouldn't use "dot above" without specifying top or bottom scroll, but even I won't pick up 204 dot above top scrolls in under 2 years).
For your rough surfaced coins I would go with Double Dot, there might be a hint of the die flaw W (but can't be certain) but it seems to be a spur (die clash between the NN) and most Double Dots have at least one spur (Dot over Top coins have not been seen with a die clash AFAIK).