The slabbing thread

[trout]

Frankly, trout, I think you owe them an apology for jumping to such a hasty conclusion.

The perception in the US and Canada is if the coin is in a slab (any slab) then it is more valuable than a "Raw" coin of the same grade.
Bobby and Susan are well aware of this phenomenon (BTW susan listed this coin) and I feel that they used this to sell an otherwise quite ordinary coin.
After all the discussion on CCF about "Basement Slabbers" you would think that this coin would have been cracked and sold raw.
With the influence they have with US and Canadian collectors you would think that a bit more thought would have gone into the listing.
Why would I apologise for giving someone a "Wake Up call", Just my opinion and quite frankly I am entitled to it .

As for us all driving Holden's and eating Maccas :angel:

I have always said we need an Australian grading mob but nobody wants to touch that hot potato.
Probably because it would only be any good within Australia for Australian coins and the market isn't big enough to make that worthwhile commercially.

[Fulvio]

...Just my opinion and quite frankly I am entitled to it...

True. Also true that others seem to have an opposing view.

But look at it this way mate... If I bought that coin, and some time later decided to sell it, why should I be forced to jailbreak it? Why should the owner's identity or standing in any way alter that? I know *some* people can't stand to see anything not be in a 2x2, but a protective case with a descriptive label, which someone paid to acquire, is not a bad thing. OK, so its not a top tier grader. So what? Anyone with any doubt can certainly look 'em up, just like I did. And they can probably still look up that coin, assuming the database hasn't been taken down.

There's absolutely nothing shonky going on in this particular molehill.

[trout]

True. Also true that others seem to have an opposing view.

:agreed:
Isn't that what makes us so diverse and not all drive Holden's :wavemulticolor:

[trout]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpdGtwVaa6g

[trout]

I emailed Susan earlier today and received a reply that we are still mates, Even after I did offer to fall on my sword :yahoo:
The listing HAS been removed and I do give Susan and Bobby full kudos for that.
All's well that ends well as far as I am concerned:wavemulticolor:

The real upside is that it made you buggers think and post your ideas and opinions , ALL is good :yahoo:

[wwwww]

If there's one thing I can't stand about the entire theory behind slabs, it is this very attitude that creeps into slab-only collectors who encounter raw yet desirable coins: "If your coin is so good, how come it isn't already in a slab?". Hello?!? Not everyone believes in instant slabbification. The simple and obvious answer is, nobody's gotten around to it yet

There is merit to that line of thought, quality pre-decimal coins sell for higher in slabs, sliders and problem coins sell higher raw. As there is a profit to be made, quality coins are going to end up in slabs and problem coins and sliders are going to end up raw. Not everyone may believe in slabs but at the end of the day greed drives every market, if there is a profit to be made someone is going to take it.

[Fulvio]

...greed drives every market, if there is a profit to be made someone is going to take it.

True, but not from me they're not. The greedy can only win if we allow them to. Every time we pay more for a slabbed coin because its slabbed, we make matters worse, and the greed gets worse.

Its like that ad on the radio at the moment... "All our cows are strict vegetarians. Unfortunately (for them), they're also delicious". Surely its obvious that being delicious is not in your best interests if you're the cow?

Well, neither is the extra profit on slabbed coins in our best interests.

[trout]

...greed drives every market, if there is a profit to be made someone is going to take it.

True, but not from me they're not. The greedy can only win if we allow them to. Every time we pay more for a slabbed coin because its slabbed, we make matters worse, and the greed gets worse.

Its like that ad on the radio at the moment... "All our cows are strict vegetarians. Unfortunately (for them), they're also delicious". Surely its obvious that being delicious is not in your best interests if you're the cow?

Well, neither is the extra profit on slabbed coins in our best interests.

You are preaching to the converted with me Mate :ok:
I have never been over the moon about value adding due to plastic.
However I am getting a coin graded by PCGS simply because I can and out of idle curiosity.
I do own a couple of coins still in their slabs, Not because I like them that way but because they were a gift and I promised not to crack them out.
The only real benefit I can see with having a coin slabbed is authentication,  a bit like getting a C.O.A With a coin.
Other than that gimme them Raw any day:wavemulticolor:

[wwwww]

Well, neither is the extra profit on slabbed coins in our best interests.

What about the extra profit on dealers make on raw coins? My point was that if a coin offered by a dealer isn't in a slab, it's because it wouldn't be profitable to slab it. So by buying raw coins you're paying a premium over the slabbed value.

The difference is that the premium earned by slabbed coins is because their condition is validated by a third party, while the premium earned by raw coins is because the buyer is unaware that the coin either has a problem that would result in a no-grade or it's simply overgraded.

[Fulvio]

...coin either has a problem that would result in a no-grade or it's simply overgraded.

Sorry, maybe I'm having a blonde moment, but I'm simply not following.

How did we reach a point where any coin not slabbed automatically must be dodgy? That's a bit like saying any beachgoer not covered neck-to-knee must be immoral. :dodgy:

Lets take a hypothetical...

Coin X catalogues at $100 UNC. Dealer A has three, all UNC, at varying prices around that mark. I look at them, and decide I love the look of one of them, and happily pay his asking price, or haggle for a better deal. So far, so good. He probably paid half what I gave him, and everyone's happy.

Dealer B also has three, all slabbed, in various MS grades. All are much more expensive, simply because they're slabbed. There's the grading fee, the auction results for the same grade setting a baseline, and a certain "snob" value conferred by the slab itself. He knows he can get those prices from "investors", and won't budge. So either I cough up the extra, or go without.

How exactly am I better off? PCGS obviously is. The dealer almost certainly is, at least for now. But how do I, as a collector, gain anything at all from the slabbing of Dealer B's coins? And what happens when Dealer A follows suit and slabs all his as well?

Its only a matter of time before there is no market for raw coins. And that I would argue harms collectors and the hobby.

[wwwww]

How did we reach a point where any coin not slabbed automatically must be dodgy? That's a bit like saying any beachgoer not covered neck-to-knee must be immoral. :dodgy:

That comes from my point before, because if it was a quality coin it would be worth more slabbed so someone would've slabbed it already. This can easily be seen in practice, visit any dealer, try and find a problem-free, accurately graded pre-decimal coin over $100 - there aren't many left.

Coin X catalogues at $100 UNC. Dealer A has three, all UNC, at varying prices around that mark. I look at them, and decide I love the look of one of them, and happily pay his asking price, or haggle for a better deal. So far, so good. He probably paid half what I gave him, and everyone's happy.

Dealer B also has three, all slabbed, in various MS grades. All are much more expensive, simply because they're slabbed. There's the grading fee, the auction results for the same grade setting a baseline, and a certain "snob" value conferred by the slab itself. He knows he can get those prices from "investors", and won't budge. So either I cough up the extra, or go without.

Prices aren't inherently higher for slabbed coins - if they were nobody would buy them. The prices go up with the quality, say it was a 1936 threepence - they go for about $100 in UNC. Say the three slabbed coins were MS62, MS63 and MS64, they'd sell for $70, $130 and $190 respectively. You still have the opportunity to source an UNC example for under $100.

Now consider the cost of slabbing is $45 and the coin has a wholesale value of $30 in UNC, it would be profitable to slab any example that would grade at MS63 or above, so your first dealers' UNC examples would at best be MS62.

So you have the choice of buying a PCGS MS62 for $70 which the dealer won't budge on, or buying a raw UNC (which if you're lucky makes MS62) priced at $100 which you need to negotiate down to $70.

[Fulvio]

Then we're doomed. What we've effectively done is put a $45 tax on every coin worth having.

And even worse, its a tax paid to a foreign company.

[bellyflorin]

Then we're doomed. What we've effectively done is put a $45 tax on every coin worth having.

And even worse, its a tax paid to a foreign company.

Fulvio you may see it as a tax , i see it as a form of insurance ,that i haven't been hookwinked by the raw coin dealers ,and when i kick the bucket ,there will be less chance  my relatives won't get hookwinked again by a dealer when they go to resell as the grade is now set .

By the way Australia Post does alright out of sending coins off to the TPG , i think they are still  a Australian company lol

Each to their own ,i say

[trout]

This "Slabbing" debate has been going on for years now and not just in this country.
Just because a coin isn't in a slab doesn't automatically equate to being a problem coin or inferior in some way, ALL coins are "Raw" to start with (They don't come out of the Mint in slabs)
Most slabbed coins ARE good quality coins because nobody in their right mind would spend the $30-$40 slabbing/postage fees to get a crap coin graded.
A slabbed coin will 99.99% of the time outperform a raw coin of the same quality in a sale, I have sold 2 coins both the same grade one was slabbed the other was raw and the slabbed coin went for over 100% more than the raw coin.

It all boils down to "Buy the coin not the slab".
If you are happy paying X amount of dollars for a coin in a slab then no problem, But If you feel the coin is overpriced because of the slabbing fee then simply don't buy it (Vote with your feet).
I personally prefer Raw coins because I can examine them in detail (Including weighing them) without having to look at them through quite often badly scratched plastic.
My main concern with slabbed coins is they are graded "Sheldon" and this can be confusing to older and newer collectors used to the ANDA type grades.

No matter which side of the room you are on with this debate, One thing is for certain.
The debate WILL continue :ok:

[wwwww]

A slabbed coin will 99.99% of the time outperform a raw coin of the same quality in a sale, I have sold 2 coins both the same grade one was slabbed the other was raw and the slabbed coin went for over 100% more than the raw coin.

Yes but this isn't because of some 'slab premium', it is because people only slab coins which will sell for more in slabs. I could just as easily say a raw coin would 99.99% of the time sell higher raw than if it were slabbed. E.g. A while back I linked a 1926 florin graded UNC Details (Cleaned) that sold at auction for $150 which later appeared raw in an Aussie auction graded uncirculated realising $1165. Then there was that GEM 1924 florin that came back UNC Details (Cleaned) that appeared in a recent thread.

It all boils down to "Buy the coin not the slab".

Yes, you'll find that the main reason many of the more experienced collectors are switching over to slabs isn't because they love the plastic, but rather because it's the only way to source quality coins in today's market.

If you are happy paying X amount of dollars for a coin in a slab then no problem, But If you feel the coin is overpriced because of the slabbing fee then simply don't buy it (Vote with your feet).

The slabbing fee only affects the price of coins which aren't popular to slab yet. Once a sufficient quantity of a coin exists in slabs, nobody will pay a premium on the lower grade coins just because they're in a slab. I make it a specific part of my business getting lower grade coins slabbed and selling them at a loss because it gets collectors started. Very few collectors would start collecting slabs if the minimum price per coin is $50.

I personally prefer Raw coins because I can examine them in detail (Including weighing them) without having to look at them through quite often badly scratched plastic.
My main concern with slabbed coins is they are graded "Sheldon" and this can be confusing to older and newer collectors used to the ANDA type grades.

I don't think that's a problem anymore. Most older collectors would already know how to grade so they won't be fooled by such and most newer collectors use the Blue Sheet so pricing is already in the Sheldon system.