Is this unethical ?

[echidna]

Recently I had one come back from PCGS bodybagged as cleaned.
It was bought a few years ago as an original gem from a very well known ANDA dealer for serious money.
The invoice says "Gem with satin surfaces".
I asked the dealer about it and the response was go away.  
What do you reckon ?

[ausjack]

Gee echi, that really sucks mate..name the bastard to start with so I don't get caught..not that I can play with the big boys very often but sometimes we little people try This way they may see or hear back that people aren't happy with their service or lack there of, and might, just might do something about it..mate that's bloody poor form..so sorry to hear
You might also have legal avenues you can take as it's not as described and now that it's been pro graded one would think that might also count but the thing that may let it down is the time frame..but worth a thought maybe :good:

[triplewitch]

You waited too long to have it certified.  The guy can always claim it was cleaned after it left him.  You know the truth, but it can't be proven either way now.  It's an expensive lesson.-John

[robbiegal]

the ANDA might help?
the dealer sounds odd to say go away if you have tried to explain the issue to him/her but you do get that , in all businesses, I suppose

with respect to pro-grading - some might argue that an ANDA dealer is also a pro-grader they just might not have a billion dollar business the same as PCGS

I trust my coin dealer 100% and he is not even an ANDA member
And I'd trust his grading over any other grading service in the world! Why - because of his expertise with Australian coins and I am very lucky to have a coin dealer with such a wealth of experience

I also have 2 other oldies of the coin world who I show my coins to for opinions and 9 times out of 10 all three will name the same grade even when I show each man the coin independently of each other

Coins are subject to opinion, expert or not, no different to artworks

but yeah, depending on the amount of years it might be tough to then go back complaining that pcgs didn't agree with the purchase grade, although having said that - what is it called?  'provenance'? - has a high place in the coin world, so hummm maybe the length of time to complain may not be such as issue?

though AJ might be right about the naming!! just to warn others

[stevo1962]

Could you post a photo of the coin so we can see what PCGS are talking about

[Australian coin]

NO naming peeps, cos the forum can get into trouble, use the PM system!

[echidna]

Could you post a photo of the coin so we can see what PCGS are talking about

http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/27455085.html

[enworb]

Association of nonsense dealing assholes?

[robbiegal]

gee
when I clicked the view value information for this coin and got the extra or different shots - that coin really does look to have satin fields - hang on THEY ARE DIFFERENT COINS ha ha - that is why thy look so good!!

but I have had some beautiful silver coins that independent purists has said, yup - she's cleaned
so I am no good for an opinion that is of any value!! ha ha

Association of nonsense dealing assholes?

ouch - that's nasty ?
have you have issues with the ANDA?

NO naming peeps, cos the forum can get into trouble, use the PM system!

might be true AC and maybe a bit frustrating
as the forum is used blatantly as a medium to sell to collectors
if collectors get stung well, should other members know about that ?

unfortunately with high end coins, there can be a huge $$ different
a Gem 1924 florin cat (my 2012 maccas)  is $8,750 whereas Unc is $2,950 - over $5,000 price range (ex PCGS auction hype which throws a spanner in the works of the whole business)

so those grades have an incredible impact on both purchase and re-sale
I reckon crack it out of the slab and re-sell through a good auction house
it might also go in as a Gem in an aussie auction house

[markn]

Presumably the dealer gave no guarantees as to how it would grade at PCGS.  He (I imagine) probably gives no credence to their determination of it being cleaned either.  He's not really obligated to.

If you're going to send coins to PCGS you need to learn to pick cleaned coins yourself and not rely on dealers opinions.  At least then, when you get it wrong, you've got no-one to blame but yourself.

That all being said I've got a fair idea of who the dealer in question is......and if it is I'm not surprised at his reaction.

[robbiegal]

funny that you should make that comment Markn

my dealer has been starting to add a PCGS guesstimate with his coins more recently, (esp American coins) either on the holder or with the sale, so in he is a way he is guaranteeing a likely grade
he certainly has said to me, if they grade down on this, bring it back to me
so all the buyer has to do is tell him that sending over to PCGS is an intention
remembering that we have a grading system conversion as well

my coin dealer  has also been selling PCGS stuff on consignment and gives the  ''PCGS best in the world" blah blah with the sell - it is really sweet to see, as a few years ago that would not have been happening

Status had stacks of slabs last auction too

[markn]

funny that you should make that comment Markn

my dealer has been starting to add a PCGS guesstimate with his coins more recently, (esp American coins) either on the holder or with the sale, so in he is a way he is guaranteeing a likely grade
he certainly has said to me, if they grade down on this, bring it back to me
so all the buyer has to do is tell him that sending over to PCGS is an intention
remembering that we have a grading system conversion as well

my coin dealer  has also been selling PCGS stuff on consignment and gives the  ''PCGS best in the world" blah blah with the sell - it is really sweet to see, as a few years ago that would not have been happening

Status had stacks of slabs last auction too

Good on him.  A lot of dealers don't want a bar of PCGS graded coins for whatever reason.  I think it's unreasonable to expect those sorts of dealers to provide any sort of assurance as to the grades of their coins.

Gosh, I've send over some coins I bought raw from dealers that PCGS called cleaned.  I certainly didn't tell the dealers about them unless asked directly.  I decided those coins were ok to send, and they were not.  My fault and no-one else was to blame.

The closest I've had to a guarantee was one dealer who said he'd buy be a carton of beer if the coin in question didn't get the grade he thought it would!

[ausjack]

did it Mark :huh:

[markn]

did it Mark :huh:

Yes.  No beer for me!

[ausjack]

at least you know he's pretty good..spewin ya missed a higher grade slab and a nice cold slab