Is this unethical ?

[b_j_w_79]

I have a problem with dealer who suggests the grade of a coin and sells and it is cleaned or not close to the grade, especially with ANDA accreditation. There no difference between putting a cleaned coin as unc on ebay.

If it's a genuine mistake (which everybody makes from time to time) they just needed to help out in some way. The level of 'help' would depend on the error made (cost) and the time after the purchase.

[echidna]

Thanks for your responses everyone.
By the way I had a similar issue a number of years ago with a big auction house.
Eventually after two years of arguing my case they took it back and refunded me.
I believe its appropriate to go back to the seller in cases like this.

[markn]

I have a problem with dealer who suggests the grade of a coin and sells and it is cleaned or not close to the grade, especially with ANDA accreditation. There no difference between putting a cleaned coin as unc on ebay.

If it's a genuine mistake (which everybody makes from time to time) they just needed to help out in some way. The level of 'help' would depend on the error made (cost) and the time after the purchase.

If you have a problem with an ANDA dealer grading to ANDA standards (whatever they are) then fine, you've got a leg to stand on.  We're not talking about that though, we're talking about a grade or opinion on cleaning from a company that has no affiliation with ANDA.  I am not sure, legally at least, you've got any recourse.

Morally, I think something completely different.

[Fr45h3R]

If I can just quote a few lines from the ANDA web site:http://www.anda.com.au/about.asp
Number 7.

Promote the interchange of information relating to forged, faked, repaired or otherwise unsatisfactory items and take action believed appropriate, including legal proceedings, to prevent or reduce the issuing, making or distribution of such items.

In this instance the coin has had its surfaces altered by a (in the eyes of PCGS) light cleaning. Would this count as an unsatisfactory item?

-rob

[echidna]

If I can just quote a few lines from the ANDA web site:http://www.anda.com.au/about.asp
Number 7.

Promote the interchange of information relating to forged, faked, repaired or otherwise unsatisfactory items and take action believed appropriate, including legal proceedings, to prevent or reduce the issuing, making or distribution of such items.

In this instance the coin has had its surfaces altered by a (in the eyes of PCGS) light cleaning. Would this count as an unsatisfactory item?

-rob

Possibly yes.
In reality ANDA is very reluctant to take action against one of its foremost members.
I have found this out the hard way in the past.
Despite blatant flouting they took no action in a previous case where a coin was sold as original whereas it was obviously cleaned and assessed as such by numerous leading dealers.
"I've been in the business for 50 years and the marks are die polishing lines."
It believe it was a blatant lie.
As mentioned in my previous post they eventually refunded after a lengthy battle.

[Bigfellani5]

Everyone in this thread assumes pcgs are correct in saying this or any other coin is cleaned. Pcgs has made mistakes, changed opinions and even placed different grading on the same coin. I am not saying pcgs are right or wrong here but I have a big problem with paying for done to tell me what a coin is when you hear regularly "resubmit a coin you get a low grade on and it might come back higher." This has happened. I have even heard cleaned coin on resubmission be not cleaned when regarded. Knowing this sort of thing happens I can not see why anyone would use them and trust them to get it right when it is known sometimes they get it wrong or can't make up their mind. When you talk about the money in the industry and the fact people can and do get ripped off buying tpgc coins then why does everyone bother? Simple answer here.... Too many treat what someone else says as gospel even though it is not And are prepared to over pay for this.

[WavyTwenty]

While not exactly the same - I share your pain.

I borught a UNC Year 2000 Incused 50 cents from eBay (I know, I know) a while back and sent it in to be graded.  It also came back unc, but cleaned.

I sent an email to the person who I bought it from and he said that he rinsed it soap and water before taking photos of it.  He obviously didn't know what he was doing because when I told him of the damage he did he said "Well, I know to not do that again".

It sucks, I almost have a Unc Year 2000 Incused 50 cents - but it's not quite there.  Now I wonder to myself what it is worth in the condition that it is in.  *sigh*

I know - this doesn't help you one bit.  But it lets me get it off my chest.

Wavy20

[Fulvio]

Everyone in this thread assumes pcgs are correct in saying this or any other coin is cleaned...
...Too many treat what someone else says as gospel even though it is not And are prepared to over pay for this.

I absolutely agree. PCGS is not a service for collectors. It is a service for money men to make money from collectors, by splitting hairs to get higher prices for their wares.

I for one would never ever get a coin slabbed, nor would I buy one for any sort of premium for being slabbed. Because I'm not a trader, I'm a collector. And as such, I care about MY opinion, not some anonymous "professional" (which, by the way, doesn't mean "good", but only "for money") grader.

[robbiegal]

gee Wavy
who would think that a wash in soap and water would be a 'clean' enough to damage an original surface
unless of course it also included a quick polish with nana's kitchen steelo!

to my thinking, your coin is still unc, just with an extra descriptor
I have some beautiful coins that have most definitely been cleaned

sometimes I think at times, it all gets a little too purist and the coin and it's history and attributes gets lost in a valuation exercise and well, i suppose that is the investment side of coin collecting

and yep I agree with you too bigfellani - grading is subjective and the parameters by the sounds of things from what you have been told, can change even with a mob like pcgs
i get a bit antsy with their colour designations as i think they under report on our reds but i must admit it makes me look harder for them!

[Fulvio]

sometimes I think at times, it all gets a little too purist and the coin and it's history and attributes gets lost in a valuation exercise and well, i suppose that is the investment side of coin collecting

I couldn't agree more. We've definitely lost our way I think.

[Bigfellani5]

gee Wavy
who would think that a wash in soap and water would be a 'clean' enough to damage an original surface
unless of course it also included a quick polish with nana's kitchen steelo!

I will say it. Has anyone considered it is just another example of pcgs getting it wrong.

[triplewitch]

Then it would be wise to get other opinions before pursuing the matter further.-John

[markn]

I will say it. Has anyone considered it is just another example of pcgs getting it wrong.

This wasn't a discussion on the validity of their opinion, just on whether a dealer should have any responsibility if PCGS opinion differed to their own.  I personally do not believe a dealer has any obligation at all.

In any event, perhaps PCGS was wrong, perhaps the dealer was wrong.  Hard to say without seeing the coin in hand.

[robbiegal]

Valid points Markn.
I sold a beautiful 1938 Crown a few years ago on e-bay.
Although I am not a professional dealer, if the buyer approached me now after having an unsuccessful submission to PCGS, am I still responsible for the opinions of assigned grade at the time of the sale, an exchange or refund?

At a certain point, as commented several times in this thread, buyer accountability has to be assumed as well or we'd be forever exchanging all sorts of items, regardless of the sale condition at the time or length of time post sale.

[drakesterling]

gee Wavy
who would think that a wash in soap and water would be a 'clean' enough to damage an original surface
unless of course it also included a quick polish with nana's kitchen steelo!

I will say it. Has anyone considered it is just another example of pcgs getting it wrong.

They're not wrong. I've seen the coin. It is cleaned.

Everyone in this thread assumes pcgs are correct in saying this or any other coin is cleaned. Pcgs has made mistakes, changed opinions and even placed different grading on the same coin. I am not saying pcgs are right or wrong here but I have a big problem with paying for done to tell me what a coin is when you hear regularly "resubmit a coin you get a low grade on and it might come back higher." This has happened. I have even heard cleaned coin on resubmission be not cleaned when regarded. Knowing this sort of thing happens I can not see why anyone would use them and trust them to get it right when it is known sometimes they get it wrong or can't make up their mind. When you talk about the money in the industry and the fact people can and do get ripped off buying tpgc coins then why does everyone bother? Simple answer here.... Too many treat what someone else says as gospel even though it is not And are prepared to over pay for this.

PCGS makes mistakes. PCGS is not perfect, but, if you're a collector with a view to selling your coins down the line, you want to grade your coins under a consistently applied grading system with world recognition, PCGS (and NGC) is the only way to do that at the moment. We all know that a hundred different dealers in Australia have a hundred different opinions about a coin's grade, whether it's cleaned, whether the marks are hairlines or die polish, etc – but at the end of the day, PCGS has a global reputation that no dealer and no association can match. The reality is that whether you agree with them or not PCGS (and NGC) is the standard in the international coin market.

Anyway, how I see it is that no matter how many mistakes PCGS might make, the raw coin dealers in aggregate (collectively) make even more. At least PCGS backs up their opinions with a buyback guarantee – that goes years in the future – unlike echidna's friendly local raw coin dealer, whose response was to simply tell the customer to "go away". Would you prefer PCGS or this raw coin dealer? You choose.