the 1909 florin

[Mister T]

Does anyone know what the full story with this piece is?
I've read a few different things in a few different places and some of the details are contradictory.

http://www.triton.vg/F09.html says that one uniface trial was struck and that two (presumably) uniface electrotypes were made.
http://www.australianstamp.com/coin-web/aust/florin/1909flor.htm suggests at least one example was struck with an uncrowned Edward VII, but the timeline says that it was a crowned effigy with an english title that was proposed and approved.
Australian Coins, Notes & Medals by Myatt and Hanley says that there are (or were) two one-sided electrotypes with the map of Australia on the reverse and a crowned Edward VII with an english title on the obverse.

All the images I've found show an uncrowned Edward VII with a latin title, which is what David Gee's forgery had.

Has anyone actually seen one of the electrotypes or the specimen in London?

[wwwww]

It was only originally produced as a uniface piece, the double sided examples with the uncrowned bust of Edward VII were struck by Gee with a die produced from a 1902 two pound.

I am unfamiliar with the electrotypes with the crowned bust of Edward VII on the obverse.

[Mister T]

If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your information?

Although as I think about it, it's strange that David Gee would only have stolen only one of the electrotypes, especially as the obverse electrotype would have made it painfully obvious his fake was a fake.

More research required, I think.

[wwwww]

Have a look at the court docs from his prosecution, there's a wealth of info available including scans of a lot of his forgeries.

[Mister T]

Thanks for the tip. I don't suppose there's an easy/online way to access these documents?

[Mister T]

Okay, I had a look in The Guide Book of British Commonwealth Coins 1649 - 1971 3rd Edition and in the Australia section it mentions a 1909 pattern florin with "a different design on obverse and reverse than 1910 2 shillings". It doesn't give any details though.

[wwwww]

If you're in Sydney try asking Mark Duff from Strand Coins, he'll probably have a copy in his library.

[Australian coin]

Hmm, I never really knew much about this type of stuff before so I have spent a bit of time learning.
I found this

Ok here is a picture â€" not the actual coin thing you are after but interesting.


The electrotype on the left is hollow?
A shell is filled with lead, copper, tin or plaster.

Electrotypes which are left empty often get bent or otherwise damaged. Several are in that state in the British Museum collection. The basic problem with electrotypes is that for best detail the shell has to be thin; but, for durability the shell should be thick
The electrotype on the left is hollow?
A shell is filled with lead, copper, tin or plaster.

Electrotypes which are left empty often get bent or otherwise damaged. Several are in that state in the British Museum collection. The basic problem with electrotypes is that for best detail the shell has to be thin; but, for durability the shell should be thick

[purplepennyhunter]

I have some forgery reports at home from the international authority that assessed some of the David gee dodgy coins for the trial. There's some good pics. I'll have a look when I get home in a few days.

[Mister T]

If you're in Sydney try asking Mark Duff from Strand Coins, he'll probably have a copy in his library.

Yeah, I might do that next time I'm there.

So is the photo showing the same thing just from different sides?

I have some forgery reports at home from the international authority that assessed some of the David gee dodgy coins for the trial. There's some good pics. I'll have a look when I get home in a few days.

That'd be great, thanks.

[Australian coin]

The left is supposed to be the shell, the right one is just a coin.
It wouldn’t let me post before so I kept pressing post, now it has a double post, anyway I logged out and left it, ‘computer tantrum”

Anyway there was a site that explained what electrotypes were, also had a picture of one done really well and was plated.

http://www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v14n39.html
Here is some more pics www.coinbooks.org/club_nbs_esylum_v12n10.html
info:
When making an electrotype of a coin, one doesn’t want to deposit a layer of metal onto the coin itself, as that would damage the original. So what happens is that the coin is pressed into clay or some other soft material that will faithfully capture each detail of the coin’s design. The clay is then dusted with a conductive medium (graphite powder, for instance), and a thin layer of metal is deposited through electroplating. This results in the formation of a thin metal shell that retains the fine detail of the coin on its surface. Each side of a coin must be electrotyped separately. The two resulting shells must then be joined together and the interior of the shells filled with another metal (lead is often used). The final product, if made by a skilled electrotyper, is a copy of a coin that looks extremely accurate. By the second half of the nineteenth century, the technology of electrotyping had been developed to the point where a skilled person could make electrotypes of valuable coins without damaging them and in such a way as to faithfully replicate each nuance of the original.
Was this a 1909 florin in this lot
http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=285590

[Mister T]

Thanks to purplepenny for providing a bit more information.
That information backs up the timeline here. It also says that the Royal Mint has a matrix, punch and die for the reverse and an electrotype prepared from these tools (so the electrotype is presumably just of the reverse), which is consistent with what's written here.

However, the information from The Guide Book of British Commonwealth Coins 1649 - 1971 seems to have been published before November 1972 when the fake 1909 florin came to light, and Myatt and Hanley definitely mention an obverse electrotype too.
It could be that a uniface pattern was prepared and the obverse electrotype which is/was at the Powerhouse Museum was prepared separately from an existing Edward VII die. I don't know where the information for The Guide Book of British Commonwealth Coins 1649 - 1971 came from, but the Australian section appears to have been prepared by Australians, so it's not a stretch to say they got some of their information from a local museum.

Was this a 1909 florin in this lot
http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=285590

That's turned up in my searches a couple of times. I guess it's just a fake (purplepenny's information says that fake uniface examples exist too).

[Australian coin]

Have you seen this product

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-1909-1910-Australian-Florin-centenary-collection-/251140529643?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item3a79245deb

[Mister T]

Not with the two real-sized florins.
I wonder what the 1909 obverse is.

[Australian coin]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1909-1910-Australian-Florin-Centenery-Collection-Silver-Proofs-LIMITED-EDITION-/120990916361?pt=AU_Coins2&hash=item1c2b9edf09

Cook Island? Wonder which mint made them?
PM has an old page, but no price
http://www.perthmint.com.au/historical-coin-collection-coins.aspx