Old head half sovereign obverses

[echidna]

The red lines are lots of 10 starting at the I in BRITT.
If I have counted right there were two different obverse dies used for old head half sovereigns:
131 denticles - A in GRA points between denticles.
133 denticles - A in GRA points virtually directly at a denticle.
From what I can see the 133 denticle type was used by Melbourne and Perth for all strikings.
1893 Sydney are all 131 denticles.
1897 Sydney - both types.
1900 Sydney - both types.

I imagine someone has noticed this already.
But I've not read it anywhere so I'd be interested to know.

Note: second image from Sterling & Currency website.

[ausjack]

Don't know anything about them sorry echi but it looks like your right. So what made you count them, just curious as most of my errors I come across purely by accident.
also in the bottom pic it looks like a cude between the "F" and the "I" in the fid on the right side.,Nice coin by the way..I take it the top one is yours.
and the top one looks like it might have a bit of a die crack on top of the a in regina but it's hard to tell sorry

[robbiegal]

is the difference between Syndey and Melbourne strikes?

[echidna]

is the difference between Syndey and Melbourne strikes?

The Sydney coins have both obverses so you cant say that the difference is simply Sydney/Melbourne.

[Mister T]

Nice find.

Out of curiosity, have you taken a look at any London old heads to see what they have?

[echidna]

Nice find.

Out of curiosity, have you taken a look at any London old heads to see what they have?

I had a quick look and it appears that they are the 133 type.

[echidna]

Don't know anything about them sorry echi but it looks like your right. So what made you count them, just curious as most of my errors I come across purely by accident.

also in the bottom pic it looks like a cude between the "F" and the "I" in the fid on the right side.,Nice coin by the way..I take it the top one is yours.

and the top one looks like it might have a bit of a die crack on top of the a in regina but it's hard to tell sorry

The differences of the alignment of A in GRA caught my eye which is why I did the count.

[Mister T]

Interesting. Looks like one of the tips on the crown is just inside the B of BRITT as well on the 133.

Seems like this Melbourne proof half-sovereign has the A between denticles (131) though: http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/71165/proof-coin-half-sovereign-victoria-australia-1893, as does http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/71166/proof-coin-half-sovereign-victoria-australia-1893
This Perth proof conforms though: http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/75108/proof-coin-half-sovereign-western-australia-australia-1901

[echidna]

Interesting. Looks like one of the tips on the crown is just inside the B of BRITT as well on the 133.

Seems like this Melbourne proof half-sovereign has the A between denticles (131) though: http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/71165/proof-coin-half-sovereign-victoria-australia-1893, as does http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/71166/proof-coin-half-sovereign-victoria-australia-1893
This Perth proof conforms though: http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/items/75108/proof-coin-half-sovereign-western-australia-australia-1901

Yes you are right.
The 1893M proof has 131 denticles.
So Melb and Sydney both had the two different obverse dies !
This makes it more interesting.
With the possibility of some scarce/rare die combinations out there...

[Mister T]

Indeed. The number of these coins left though is pretty small though right?

What was the story with die production in Australia at the time? Were they sent from England or did at least one of the local mints have the kit to make them here?

[echidna]

Indeed. The number of these coins left though is pretty small though right?

What was the story with die production in Australia at the time? Were they sent from England or did at least one of the local mints have the kit to make them here?

Re: survival rates I cant comment except to say that half sovs would probably have the lowest survival rates out of all pre-decimal coins.
Re: die production - My understanding is that working dies were produced at the Australian mints from Masters sent from England.

[Mister T]

So it's possible that the London ones would exhibit this variety too?
If there were multiple master dies then would there be any reason they'd use one only in Australia?

Also, while pondering this I looked at some images of old head sovereigns and it looks like there is a similar pair of obverses, though it's easier to tell the difference by looking at where the I in DEI points.

[echidna]

So it's possible that the London ones would exhibit this variety too?
If there were multiple master dies then would there be any reason they'd use one only in Australia?

Also, while pondering this I looked at some images of old head sovereigns and it looks like there is a similar pair of obverses, though it's easier to tell the difference by looking at where the I in DEI points.

Yeah I just chose A in GRA because that's what I first noticed.
It appears that London strikings consist of both versions also.
A numismatic mystery ?

[Mister T]

Well I guess gold is expensive enough that most people probably can't have an ice-cream bucket full of spares to check for varieties.
I don't know though - I assume that the different penny obverse and reverse varieties, for instance, occurred because new master dies were made years after the original and no concern was given to an irrelevant detail like bead count. Why would two different master dies need to be made in one year then? But then again, even in to the 20th century stuff like this happened. Numismatic mystery I guess.

[trout]

I know aboslutly nothing,nada,zilch about these coins but I intend to get close and personal with them:yahoo: