Update for future McDonald guides

[Unicorn]

Some very wise words there Greg. (Recall many ..... and remember paying the cost ..... of several of those scenarios). All you can ever do is your best, I'm sure many know that you do that!

[Greg McDonald]

Thanks, Unicorn, for your kind words.  I know I sometimes get on my high horse, but it really burns me up when resellers deliberately hype up certain coins because of an obtuse connection with a well-publicised event.  One way to sort out the genuine reseller from the opportunist would be to ask them to offer a money-back guarantee -at the same price - twelve months down the track.  I think you'd find quite a few folding their tents.

[Bigfellani5]

Hi Greg

I have not looked at this forum for many months. Life has just got in the way. I am glad to here that more books are being published by you. You have been missed by the industry.

Any news on when expected release dates are.

Dont forget to shoot me an email when wholesale purchasing is available.

[Triggersmob]

Hi Greg,

Not sure if you are a member over at CCF, but this question was asked...

"For many years the mintage figure of the 1930 penny has been widely accepted to be around 3000 coins.

While looking through the 22nd edition of McDonald's "Australian Coins and Banknotes" I noted he now lists the mintage figure to be 1200


Quote:
Estimated mintage figures of 1,200 pieces are based on visitor numbers at the Melbourne Mint in 1930. No accurate figures have yet surfaced.


What would the visitor numbers at the Melbourne Mint in 1930 have to do with the mintage figures of the 1930 penny? "

[fred lever]

Oh Dear.
I thought that particular fairy story had been put to bed ages ago.
The "visitor" book entries have NOTHING to do with the number of1930 dated pennies in circulation.
That is story was just a guess by someone at some time to try to quantify the mintage, with no rational basis.
In short:
The number of 1930 pennies can never be known.
What we do know is when 1930 dated dies were set up in the presses.
In September 1930 a short run was made with the penny dies to prepare the normal specimen coins required as was normal practice.
TWELVE specimens were selected from the short press run and SIX specimens are known to exist.
The "short run" balance presumably went into stock or scrap.
No pennies were ordered in that year by the government so the official circulating mintage for 1930 pennies in the year 1930 was zero.
In September 1931 the 1930 dies were mounted again in the presses and a small number of 1930 amongst a larger number of 1931 dated coins were minted.
No count was made of what coins had what dates.
The Mint satisfied the year 1931 order for pennies by supplying coins dated 1929, 1930 and 1931. (They had a heap of 29's still in stock at the time.)
All of this has been plotted and deduced by examination of government records by mint officials at the time, researchers in the 1970's and researchers now right up to 2022.
The likely number of 1930 dated pennies minted may be in the thousands.
Any guess-estimation today by the known number left in collections and by auctions and sales indicates about the same somewhere around 2000.
Thats the story, just engineering and record, no coins handed out at the front door, special mintage in the 1950's or any other barking mad speculation.

I tried to keep this entry short!
I have written volumes about the 1930 penny, about how they were made, the fakes and so on.
Further reading for the interested can be by back issue of CAB by myself and many other Authors, back issues of the JNNA for papers by researchers.
Upcoming will be the next updated book by Dr Briggs on Aussie coppers with a much-expanded section on1930.
Cheers, Fred.

[WavyTwenty]

I tried to keep this entry short!
I have written volumes about the 1930 penny, about how they were made, the fakes and so on.
Further reading for the interested can be by back issue of CAB by myself and many other Authors, back issues of the JNNA for papers by researchers.
Upcoming will be the next updated book by Dr Briggs on Aussie coppers with a much-expanded section on1930.
Cheers, Fred.

Cheers Fred!

That's some quality information that is helpful to read.  You may have to keep saying/writing it because it's the first time I have heard it and there are probably plenty more people like me around.

[nealeffendi]

Simple logic says the visitor swap story is garbage. The visitors were mostly from the right side of the tracks so if they swapped a penny for a penny then many would have still kept them and had them in Unc condition in the 1960s. And those who no longer had them would have mentioned their laments. Not a single person ever is known to have retained such a coin or to have said yes they did swap a penny but then spent it.
Besides, if 1200 visitors that year would every one of them swapped a penny? And did the mint set aside a bag for the whole 12 months to do such swapping? Plus in January did they know that by December there would be 1200 visitors? If they didn't know then did they mint more than required and then melt the excess?
Besides, unless they had a turnstyle counters there is no way to have an accurate count of visitors. Unless of course there was a sign in book for visitors where the number can be counted. But then we would know their name and perhaps address, organisation etc and they would have been spoken to by researchers back in the 1960s.

[nealeffendi]

Fred is right. Zero evidence to support the visitor swap a penny nonsense. Without even touching on the die book and press results it is possible to laugh at that visitor swap a penny nonsense.
Firstly how do they know there was 1200 visitors? Did every visitor go through a turnstyle that counted them? Or sign in to a visitors log? If a log of visitors then surely that book had names and addresses that would have been looked at and the people contacted in the mid '60s by both researchers and dealers after all those Unc 1930 pennies that so many would have kept.
Not a single person came foreword in the coin boom of the 1960s to show their keepsake or to lament how they spent it.
Even if 1200 visitors in 1930 were there pennies struck by early January to swap with? Did they strike pennies as visitors came through like at an ANDA fair? Buckley chance of that. Or did they strike a batch at the start of the year ready for visitors and then at years end destroy the leftovers? Doesn't sound likely as why waste perfectly good pennies and the cost of striking them in a time of belt tightening.
And yes there was a Depression on and some might have had to spend that penny on food. But most visitors were not poor. Most were from the right side of the tracks, professional people, government minions, private school educated types. So the other chestnut that none were kept as people were poor is silly. Sure there was 30% unemployment but that means 70% were still in work and just tightening their expenses a bit.

[Greg McDonald]

I agree with all the comments about the mintage figures.  As there are no records to say exactly how many 1930 pennies were minted, I was simply trying to offer what information I had.  The 1,200 people who signed the visitors book was given to me by the Melbourne Mint many years ago.  All that information offers is that not a lot of people visited the mint that year.  From the information I had at the time [before Fred offered his research] it was a starting point. Like so many things in life, not all accepted facts survive the test of time.  I guess the only thing I feel frustrating is that people prefer to use general forums to criticise or bitch about things they disagree about rather than contact the author - I'm not just talking about my book in mentioning this.  I am just saying it seems logical to inform the person responsible for the particular 'error' or whatever as they are there only people capable of correcting, or updating information.  

On another theme : A safe and happy festive season to all,  cheers Greg

[serenitystan]

I would like a $100.00 dollars for every different story about how many they made and why..Then I would have enough money to buy one...

[nealeffendi]

Hi Greg, hope my comments above didn't cause offence. I'm just a pedantic researcher who likes to find the detailed facts behind the fables.
How did Melbourne Mint give you the visitors log figure of 1200? Was that figure recorded in say an annual report that they then conveyed that number to you or did they have the actual visitors log to count the number they gave to you? By chance do you recall who from the Mint passed on that number of 1200 to you? In person, telephone or letter response? Possibly Mullett?
On the log book signing; have to wonder was it only done by adults and not any children accompanying them (or school groups just signed by the teacher), possibly even women may not have signed if with their husbands (so a single entry for Mr and Mrs John  Smith).
And Steve is right in asking why would the number of visitors that year have any bearing on the mintage?
Only a couple of weeks till Christmas, hope to see the guide out soon.

[Greg McDonald]

Hi nealeffendi
No certainly not offended - at least I'm now part of the discussion.  Back in 1988 I was at a Spink auction in Melbourne at the time all of the Melbourne Mint Duplicates were being sold off to buy other coins missing from the Museums collection.  To celebrate the event, the Museum held an after-hours reception for Vip collectors, overseas dealers and a smattering of us local dealers.  There were about 40 of us at the reception and a lot of numismatic topics were covered. The mintage of the 1930 penny was raised.  No-one present had any concrete answer [nor the visitors book] and someone in the room [possibly Tom Hanley] made the suggestion.  As I said before, I had no other information  and, at the time, I thought the suggestion was better than nothing. Obviously, in my next book. that 'theory' has been scuttled by Fred's thorough explanation.  In the next edition, I will be relaying the facts as supplied by Fred, who has kindly given me complete access to his far-reaching files.  Just another case where rumours can turn into facts over time.  Bit like some people thinking that Lee Harvey Oswald being the lone gunman!

[Greg McDonald]

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY
'
Be careful about using Google to diagnose health issues.  You might die from a misprint

[nealeffendi]

Hi Greg, when you mentioned the Melbourne Museum I got a shudder. That place is a disgrace to conserving the history of our coins. A couple of years back I was researching a little bit about the change from 925 to 500 coinage. Spotted a significant factual error in the museums internet records about the 1946 florin. Contacted them to see if I could look at the original paperwork to spot how and when the record was screwed up. Not possible as the silly buggers had long destroyed all the paperwork.
Literally everything I see about the pre decimals that that museum publishes has so many stupid errors that it cannot be taken seriously. No wonder in that environment the swap a penny chestnut was floated.

[fred lever]

Sadly, I have to agree with Neal about the Melbourne Museum.
Fifteen years ago, I found significant errors in the information about the collection of pre decimal coins.
There appeared to be losses in the collection as well.
My attempts to discuss this with the curator at the time were fruitless.
A real shame as viewers or researchers regard Museum displays as an impeccable source of information.
The Museum needs a specialist manager and funding for the coin collection and displays.
No, it's not going to be me!
Fred.