5th Variety of 1931 Penny discovered

[echidna]

https://en.everybodywiki.com/The_Unicorn_Penny
Yurist is now claiming a 6th version of the 1931 penny.

[fred lever]

I note that "frederick3862" now only has 2 x 1931D1Indians for sale on ebay.
The ones with the coin markers: spot between F and A on the reverse and the one with the spot behind kings head on the obverse.
Wonder what happened to the other 3?
Oh and you can buy 4 coins for $4,900 with the king spot coin.

Bargain!

Fred.

[fred lever]

To anyone not privy to the volumes of information floating around between various correspondents including myself about this "Unicorn" coin and my statement that the coin as shown in Fig 5 of the JNNA "unicorn" discovery is a concoction with the 3 and 1 tacked over where a 2 and 9 was.
 The time for endless pages of explanations are over.

It has been suggested to Yuri that the Fig 5 coin be sent to a third party coin evaluation buisness such as PCGS.
Such a third party body should be able to establish by scanning whether the date numerals are a continuous part of the coin body and not tacked on extras.
That is all that is required here. The metallic composition of the coin is not in question. The die evolution is not part of this test.

If an independent body such as PCGS found the "Unicorn 1931" coin to be genuine and not a glued up concoction I will be the first to grovel and give a full apology to Yuri and retract my description of "Piltdown 1931" as seen on my last memo on the subject.

Cheers, Fred Lever.

[Basil]

Yes Fred.its a 'iffy' Coin.

Aircraft Engineering Businesses can do X-rays,they X-ray(probably more advanced techniques these days) metal for cracks & fatigue.
Back in the 1960/70's Lynx Engineering in Sydney checked some Coins for some of the bigger Dealers,probably 1930 pennies.

[fred lever]

Nothing to do with coins, but gosh Basil, "Lynx"  is a blast from the past!
The company I worked for as an apprentice at Homebush, used to send lots of rotating stuff to Lynx to balance and/or check welds.
As a callow youth I would sneak out with the delivery truck to places like Lynx, J&S fibreglass, the factory that used to make mouse traps and race cars  (memory gone) and various foundries and metal spinners. Also, Ford was just down the road and we used a few x-stock blue painted big blocks (memory gone, "Goss Cleveland build"???) for special projects.
Should stop right here and not hi-jack the thread!
Fred.

[JeffH]

And a manifold for just about any carbie, or multiples, on just about any engine.

[Unicorn]

I'm sure I had some lynx stuff on my galant. Twin 42mm webers, but I know I know the name. ....... It will come to me ....... in the dead of the night so that I can forget when I wake up :laugh2:

[nealeffendi]

Hi Fred, please don't say the metal composition of the unicorns is not in question. If there are any added numerals then the metallurgy might show either minute or major differences depending on the source of the numbers. Imperial bronze changed its composition a number of times and even when the mint was making ostensibly the same formula there would be differences between every batch. Each mine has  different contaminants and how many batches were unevenly mixed as shown by streaky pennies and wood tone pennies.
So can they focus the xrf analysis gun on just the digits?

[fred lever]

Hi Neal, no, that is not what i said.

I'm talking about the coin shown in fig5 of Yuris JNNA paper and in my memo and whether it has a 31 glued over the top of the 29.
All PCGS has to do is give the coin a yes/no test on that point.
For that test, exactly what it is made of is irrelevant.

After that, I agree with you completely, when you get to the nitty gritty of working out what was made by whom and where and how, material composition will be very important.

Lets not get diverted with side issues generating more arguing points like a class full of  high school debaters when the question is very simple: is the coin a dud or not a dud?
I think PCGS will have seen enough faked up concoctions and have a room full of hi-tech machines I know nothing about to work it out.

Cheers, Fred.

[Basil]

The x-ray can show what's going on with the numbers,added with adhesive of some kind,metal around them manipulated etc. but as you say PCGS would have some fairly exotic means of testing coins these days.
Lynx had some state of the art x-ray machines for the Aircraft and Motor Racing industries but that was 50 years ago,methods used by the Aircraft Engineering firms these days would be far more advanced.

[nealeffendi]

The metallic composition of the coin is not in question. The die evolution is not part of this test.


Cheers, Fred Lever.
Hi Fred, you did say that and that is why I raised the issue. Precision of language is important in numismatic research. (Yes, I'm a PITA pedant).
I'm no expert on brazing or welding so is it possible (perhaps with the right equipment?) to precisely braze/weld bronze such that x-ray analysis is inconclusive in showing a join? Not necessarily in this case but for advances by fakers for other bronze ( or other metal) rarities.

[fred lever]

Yep Neil, ok I'll watch my language from now on!
I dont want to get marked down  you again.
My point badly made, is not to lose sight of the test.
I simply say that the coin shown as fig 5 in the JNNA article (and discussed in this forum endlessly) is suspect.
PCGS need to test for hanky panky coin alteration, NOT, whether the coin is some variety of something.

As always ready to be corrected!
Sloppy writer Fred.

[fred lever]

Just on this subject, I was wondering how many 1929 pennies have the "R dot" and "O dot" as a percentage of the total mintage.
I only have about 100 1929 pennies in my collection and found only 1 with the dots.
I spotted a couple on ebay yesterday amongst the hundreds of 29 on offer. (i grabbed one of those).
I reckon at least 50 dies were used ( 50,000 per die?) to produce the millions of 29 made so an incidence of 1 in a hundred or so would be in order?

So, have a gander at your 1929's and let me know if you have a "Rdot".
Fred.

[Basil]

So, have a gander at your 1929's and let me know if you have a "Rdot".
Fred.

I'll have a look next W/end Fred.

This clip was sent to me by a Coin Collecting Friend,met thru Ebay,who has a property down Grafton(NSW) way.
AFAIK the NR Times is a Grafton based paper that is expanding its circulation area to include Lismore/Ballina/Byron as Murdoch closed all our local papers including the throw-ins a Month or 2 ago.

Sorry Yuri but i call BS on this Coin and everyone asociated with it.

[fred lever]

Well that is fantastic news, about that coin made in India for the RAM in 1931.
I wonder who in Sydney has the gear to "certify" a pre decimal coin?
Dont even all the big time dealers in Sydney  have to send their coins off to PCGS or some professionsl joint for "certification"?
Anyway, Oh, look theres that figure of $75,000 again, could this chap Joe Spence be the seller of the coin we saw on ebay?
Or have some connection with that frederick**** that had the four or five drop indian drop 1's  for sale?
I do not have much to do with the commercial side of coins so simply do not know.
I guess time will tell.
Fred.