1920 penny London die

123456789 · November 15, 2017, 02:24:28 AM

I was under the impression there was a 1920 no dot London die but while looking though the pcgs pop report I noticed none had been graded. Dose this coin exists?

autocoupler · November 15, 2017, 02:52:35 AM

Quote from: '123456789' pid='112803' dateline='1510674868'I was under the impression there was a 1920 no dot London die but while looking though the pcgs pop report I noticed none had been graded. Dose this coin exists?

None have been found to my knowledge, any that had previously been thought of as being such, have been shown to be a filled die dot below. When I first started collecting varieties some fifteen years ago I purchased a so called London plain penny from arguably our biggest Melbourne dealership, only to find out many years later it was a filled die dot below. There are numerous die markers to be aware of which indicate a filled bottom dot, such as a die crack through "IND", die crack through VSV, diagonal die crack through "A" of COMMONWEALTH, small cud at top of "P" in PENNY, depressions on reverse to the left and below bottom scroll.

I'm sure there are others here who can add to the list.

fred lever · November 15, 2017, 12:36:34 PM

Hi, the answer is no. None have ever been sighted. As AC notes above even the experts sell them and you can clearly see a dot!!
Guys like Neal Effendi and Stuart Anderson and others have looked through 10's thousands of English Obverse 1920 pennys and never found one.
Neal and Fred covered this this extensively in the CAB December 2013 vol 16 #11 with photos, tables and text covering die markers and so on.
Its a dead issue, there are simply no 'no dot' but plenty with filled dots as AC points out.
Cheers, fred.

nealeffendi · November 15, 2017, 05:55:02 PM

Quote from: 'fred lever' pid='112813' dateline='1510711594'Hi, the answer is no. None have ever been sighted. As AC notes above even the experts sell them and you can clearly see a dot!!
Guys like Neal Effendi and Stuart Anderson and others have looked through 10's thousands of English Obverse 1920 pennys and never found one.
Neal and Fred covered this this extensively in the CAB December 2013 vol 16 #11 with photos, tables and text covering die markers and so on.
Its a dead issue, there are simply no 'no dot' but plenty with filled dots as AC points out.
Cheers, fred.

Not quite. 10's of thousands of 1920 pennies yes; but 10's of thousands English obverse would mean looking at a few hundred thousand 1920 pennies :shock: Even I'm not that keen. Probably closer to a thousand (on the underside, not above, I do own over 400 and the rest I've seen as images, when I cannot identify the die I always try to get the coin in hand but then always find the 3 die markers or find the seller has included the obverse image of a wrong coin such as a 1919 penny) and I've yet to find any English obverse except the 3 dies known (2 of them Dot Below, being the die mark IND variety and the half as common die chip on E variety). The Dot above English is the hard one to get, but I own a few and have seen images of over 20 more. Have NEVER seen a No Dot English so I'm pretty confident they don't exist even though every 2nd seller of English obverse 1920's claims it's a No Dot, even with a visible dot :@

123456789 · April 03, 2018, 08:08:47 PM

Got some coins back from PCGS the other day and the 1920 London die I sent came back as
1920 authenticity unverifiable Australia no dot.
Has anyone else had this problem with 1920 London dies. There is no dot visible but just assumed it was a field die or something

Mister T · April 03, 2018, 08:40:14 PM

Authenticity of what exactly? The variety?

nealeffendi · April 03, 2018, 08:41:54 PM

Quote from: '123456789' pid='114754' dateline='1522751927'Got some coins back from PCGS the other day and the 1920 London die I sent came back as
1920 authenticity unverifiable Australia no dot.
Has anyone else had this problem with 1920 London dies. There is no dot visible but just assumed it was a field die or something

I'm surprised by their stupidity. The coin has the rim groove above BRITT. A known marker for one of the 2 Dot Below die pairs, the reverse also has a spur (die clash) in the correct position for this particular die pair. As there has never been a verified No Dot English they are chasing Unicorns by even suggesting it as an unverifiable No Dot. Does that mean they won't slab any 1920 penny with a worn dot? Probably means most mid grade 1920 pennies cannot be slabbed.
Did you use the code 569778 on the submission form?

123456789 · April 03, 2018, 08:52:19 PM

I did the on line form and could only submit it as a 1920 penny. It would not allow any other details
I also sent a double dot that I described as a 1920 penny but came back with the correct variety

nealeffendi · April 04, 2018, 12:51:05 AM

Quote from: '123456789' pid='114761' dateline='1522754539'I did the on line form and could only submit it as a 1920 penny. It would not allow any other details
I also sent a double dot that I described as a 1920 penny but came back with the correct variety

I just tried it and entering the code number works. If you entered the description instead you might have had the problem.

Mister T · May 04, 2019, 01:42:46 PM

There's one on ebay now for anyone interested: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1920-Penny-Dot-Below-London-Die-PCGS-AU55-Ex-NGC-AU58/113730161047?hash=item1a7ad88997:g:dBAAAOSweuNcw-o6

autocoupler · May 06, 2019, 03:52:17 PM

IMO, that dot below London is a rare coin in that condition, even with the rim ding. It's quite obvious, though, it should never be attempted to cross reference the Sheldon system of grading with the superior ANDA Australian adjectival system (when done correctly).

The reference to AU in the given grade, may imply the coin is at or near almost uncirculated condition to an unwary collector not familiar with the American system, which it is definitely not.

IMO, If that coin was being sold by a reputable ANDA dealer, it would attract a grade of almost EF at best. :angel:

nealeffendi · May 06, 2019, 05:09:19 PM

Better than aEF, certainly not AU58 as NGC graded it. AU55 is probably close to reasonable. And yes the use of AU in the slab grading system is very misleading as for example AU50 is no better than our VF to gVF and the AU55 is EF to gEF yet some AU58 graded coins are aUnc or better.
The adjectival system also has its problems as coins that are AU58+ are not really adequately described by adjectives unless you want a mouthful of an adjective (ChoiceaUncplus)

serenitystan · May 09, 2019, 03:54:43 PM

Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='119327' dateline='1557123737'IMO, that dot below London is a rare coin in that condition, even with the rim ding. It's quite obvious, though, it should never be attempted to cross reference the Sheldon system of grading with the superior ANDA Australian adjectival system (when done correctly).

The reference to AU in the given grade, may imply the coin is at or near almost uncirculated condition to an unwary collector not familiar with the American system, which it is definitely not.

IMO, If that coin was being sold by a reputable ANDA dealer, it would attract a grade of almost EF at best. :angel:

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='119328' dateline='1557128359'Better than aEF, certainly not AU58 as NGC graded it. AU55 is probably close to reasonable. And yes the use of AU in the slab grading system is very misleading as for example AU50 is no better than our VF to gVF and the AU55 is EF to gEF yet some AU58 graded coins are aUnc or better.
The adjectival system also has its problems as coins that are AU58+ are not really adequately described by adjectives unless you want a mouthful of an adjective (ChoiceaUncplus)

Overgraded by NGC + PCGS. My opinion is VF, based on VF-Very Fine. The design and lettering is clearly defined, but some SLIGHT wear is evident on the high points of the design and rim border. A few scratches may be seen...COIN GRADING...

nealeffendi · May 09, 2019, 04:17:23 PM

[quote pid='119345' dateline='1557383083']

Overgraded by NGC + PCGS. My opinion is VF, based on VF-Very Fine. The design and lettering is clearly defined, but some SLIGHT wear is evident on the high points of the design and rim border. A few scratches may be seen...COIN GRADING...
[/quote]

The ANDA grading photos show EF as 8 full pearls and full bands, this coin has those so better than aEF, VF has the 7-8th pearls indistinct/worn away so certainly better than VF. A low end EF (not aEF but EF) in my book. As to whether PCGS has overgraded I can see your viewpoint. The coin might be low end AU55 or high end AU53, it also troubles me that there is a bit of green in the crown just below TT and on the reverse at least 5 blobs of green at M, A, T, F and the dot between the date and LIA. Will those remain stable or will they grow, how can they be treated in a sealed slab unless you send it back (postage is high as is cleaning costs) to get restoration.

autocoupler · May 09, 2019, 08:14:02 PM

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='119346' dateline='1557384443'The ANDA grading photos show EF as 8 full pearls and full bands, this coin has those so better than aEF

Nah! The 7th and 8th pearls look like they've been attacked with an angle grinder, and then someone's thrown the coin at the shed wall in disgust, which produced the rim ding (flat).

Oops, nice coin though!!