1914 Edward VII MULE new find.

nealeffendi · October 19, 2016, 04:50:06 PM

Hope the heading got your attention. A Canadian 1914 10 cent coin with an Edward VII obverse was recently slabbed by the main Canadian TPG (ICGS).
It was posted over on CCF along with a number of very nice Aussie pre decimals. Only problem is that they are all very high grade fakes. The fakes are of many different years and denominations and are almost perfect and a number may already be in slabs (ICGS slabbed at least 3 different fakes and didn't even spot that the 1914 coin had the wrong obverse:shok:). Had the faker not made such a stupid pairing they may not have been detected for a long time.
The experts in Canadian coins are now looking for the finer points to identify the fakes (like several coins having the same small ding) but it is only a small step for the counterfeiters to fix that problem (tweek the images that they take of the original coin to airbrush/photoshop the defect away) and then they can 3D print perfect dies.
The various fakes include silver coins, CuNi and bronze coins from a number of countries, denominations and monarchs and the old standby of spotting fakes (wonky dates) doesn't apply.

gnome · October 19, 2016, 06:20:11 PM

Any chance of some pics if you can, please.

echidna · October 19, 2016, 07:28:34 PM

I got caught with two of these earlier this year.
From a Canadian seller.
Fortunately not too much money involved.

They are hard to detect especially with the usual dodgy Ebay photos.
Here is one of these fakes graded by NGC:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/canadian-coin-and-currency/catalogue-id-canadi10000/lot-07ba1be8-e229-4fb0-ab0b-a426012aab6e

serial · October 19, 2016, 08:18:41 PM

Quote from: 'echidna' pid='100188' dateline='1476867514'I got caught with two of these earlier this year.
From a Canadian seller.
Fortunately not too much money involved.

They are hard to detect especially with the usual dodgy Ebay photos.
Here is one of these fakes graded by NGC:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/canadian-coin-and-currency/catalogue-id-canadi10000/lot-07ba1be8-e229-4fb0-ab0b-a426012aab6e

why is that a fake?

echidna · October 19, 2016, 08:35:59 PM

Its definately a fake.
This one (also a 1911 penny) came back from PCGS as counterfeit:

They have the same marks.
eg mark under D of DG is exactly the same also the extra bit of rim.

Mister T · October 19, 2016, 09:48:19 PM

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=271671 is the thread.

Somewhat worrying...

r9453 · October 20, 2016, 04:13:55 AM

Here is the NGC MS64RB (the king appears to have a verdigris teardrop):

trout · October 20, 2016, 06:53:26 AM

There are some incredibly good counterfeits out there now.
Maybe this 3d printing is helping the manufacturers of these to create their dies I don't know but they are getting pretty good at what the do lately.
That 1914 "Edward" 10c on CCF is very strange that they stuffed up and put a dead king on a Canadian coin.

Robster · October 20, 2016, 08:10:38 AM

Interesting read, had to happen eventually!

Basil · October 20, 2016, 11:01:50 AM

Yeah,nightmare,my Brother purchased a 1911 Penny a few Months back with similar colour/condition,i'll get him to find it and will throw up some Pics. on the W/end.

This 34/35 Florin is interesting whilst talking about fakes,i can't remember a genuine coin not having the Torch fully formed although other details look OK on this poor Pic.

autocoupler · October 20, 2016, 12:18:14 PM

Quote from: 'Basil' pid='100205' dateline='1476923510'This 34/35 Florin is interesting whilst talking about fakes,i can't remember a genuine coin not having the Torch fully formed although other details look OK on this poor Pic.

I seem to remember reading about how the horses hooves are impressed more into the bottom bar on these fakes. This looks like one of those IMHO.
So glad I'm finished collecting these days, and have moved more into model railways. :yahoo:

jrg_from_oz · October 20, 2016, 12:35:48 PM

Quote from: 'Robster' pid='100202' dateline='1476913238'Interesting read, had to happen eventually!

Very true, but still very bad news for all collectors. This makes the provenance paper trail for valuable coins even more important than ever.

In a similar case, Australian OS stamps have had their values reduced significantly in the past 10 or 15 years, because of the number and quality of forged OS punctures. I can see the same thing happening to the rare coin market, because the forgeries are so good. Even TPG slabs are no longer immune - after all, they are still an opinion of one or more people, and even good expertisers can be fooled (I don't rate the mob who certified the 1914 KEVII as "good" - they weren't fooled, they were plainly ignorant of basic history, and how to read a catalogue.)

So how best to protect ourselves? Buying from respected dealers who will stand behind their products is the obvious way, but there will always be those who prefer to look for a bargain in places like ebay. Even buying from/trading with fellow collectors can now be dodgy, not because our fellow collectors set out to deliberately deceive, but because they themselves may have been deceived without knowing. Again, the paper trail becomes all-important in these transactions, and we need to get into the habit of requesting original documentation as part of the sale process.

It really has become more of a minefield out there than ever before.

John

gnome · October 20, 2016, 02:12:19 PM

Thanks for the link Mr T.

, haven't had a chance to read it all yet.

That 34/35 looks like a diecrack through the robe as well.

Basil · October 20, 2016, 04:15:05 PM

Quote from: 'autocoupler' pid='100210' dateline='1476928094'I seem to remember reading about how the horses hooves are impressed more into the bottom bar on these fakes. This looks like one of those IMHO.
So glad I'm finished collecting these days, and have moved more into model railways. :yahoo:

Yeah,i remember now,this looks like an updated version of that fake,they haven't fixed the front leg that's in the air,hoof has a pad instead of a shoe....sigh...
Also when looking at the Kings Robe the medal on his chest is not formed correctly, missing a lower star point.

Fulvio · October 20, 2016, 08:14:56 PM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='100198' dateline='1476908606'Maybe this 3d printing is helping the manufacturers of these to create their dies

I doubt it. 3D printers wouldn't help unless they were turning out six-foot plasters or something. They're just way too coarse.

However the CNC machines available, even down into the hobby-sized budget, are as good as anything available to the mints, especially back in the day.

If you replicate the materials and the processes perfectly, then the finished products really WILL be indistinguishable from the originals. There's just no escaping that. And you can't rely forever on the forgers making stupid mistakes either.

Think about it.. if you had the run of the mint, you could load up a couple of dies and mint coins which were for all intents and purposes, real. If you could take those dies home and had a similar press, you could still produce 'real' coins. And if you were able to perfectly replicate the dies, well, you'd still have 'real' coins. We have the technology nowadays to allow that, without spending millions.

At the end of the day, they're just lumps of metal squashed between two other lumps of metal, aren't they?