RE: Percentage of remaining pre decimal

[nealeffendi]

I have a few thousand 1922 pennies and I agree that some varieties are rare and others are generally unknown. For example there are 2 different Indian master hubs and at least 6 different wide dates; but none of the catalogues (including the variety catalogues) mention this.

[autocoupler]

I have a few thousand 1922 pennies and I agree that some varieties are rare and others are generally unknown. For example there are 2 different Indian master hubs and at least 6 different wide dates; but none of the catalogues (including the variety catalogues) mention this.

So that's what happened, instead of the melting pot they ended up at your place :biggrin:  Seriously though, speaking of the wide dates, have you documented the six? It would be interesting to see what they are, as I was only able to locate five.

For example. Two wide dates of same width, coin #2 having the first numeral 2 at a slightly different alignment with rim denticles below when compared to coin #1. Coin #3 is identical to coin #1 but displays a small spike like extension from the tail of the 9. From here it seemed logical to me that there would be another coin identical to coin #2 but displaying the spike from the 9, alas, no luck as yet. Coins four and five are the extra wide dates, with one displaying the spike like extension from the tail of the 9. So that is five wide / extra wide dates in all at this point.

There are a couple of other varieties that I believe are sometimes mistaken for wide dates, reason being, they display the distinctive upright 9 that is typical. Fact is though, these other varieties have a date width less than any of the wide date varieties, one of which I believe to be the narrowest date width of all 1922 pennies.

Could you please do a check of your six wide date examples to see if any are actually the narrower date that displays the upright 9. Would be great if you could get back with what you find. Hopefully I can then stop looking for that fourth elusive wide date.

[nealeffendi]

Hi Autocoupler.
It is hard to mistake the narrow dates with the wide dates as all the wide dates have FBL lettering and English obverses. That combination is rare in the non wide dates with only 3 dies known and they all have the standard 9 which is at a different angle to the wide dates.
For the wide dates it gets tricky to identify the individual dies. There are 2 dies that developed very similar die cracks through MONWE, one of which had the tail on the 9. Another die also had a tail. There was also an extra wide date that developed a die clash (spur) and 2 wide dates with no distinguishing features but the 9s are at slightly different angles.
I'm hazarding to guess but the wide dates might have been dies prepared in London and sent straight to Perth in 1922 as there is a record of London sending dies. Might explain why those dies struck superior coins.

[autocoupler]

Hi Autocoupler.
It is hard to mistake the narrow dates with the wide dates as all the wide dates have FBL lettering and English obverses. That combination is rare in the non wide dates with only 3 dies known and they all have the standard 9 which is at a different angle to the wide dates.
For the wide dates it gets tricky to identify the individual dies. There are 2 dies that developed very similar die cracks through MONWE, one of which had the tail on the 9. Another die also had a tail. There was also an extra wide date that developed a die clash (spur) and 2 wide dates with no distinguishing features but the 9s are at slightly different angles.
I'm hazarding to guess but the wide dates might have been dies prepared in London and sent straight to Perth in 1922 as there is a record of London sending dies. Might explain why those dies struck superior coins.

Thanks nealeffendi. I get the feeling we may be using slightly different criteria but suspect we mostly may be talking about the same coins. One question though. When you speak of non wide dates with English obverses and FBL which have the standard 9, are you referring to the common and obviously left leaning 9? I only ask this question to avoid confusion as I do know of other non wide date  English obverse / FBL reverse examples that do have the upright 9.
I agree with your comment about the superior strikes. One of the  varieties in particular that I just mentioned displays a near perfect centre strike and near perfect rims, particularly on the obverse. In just over nine years I've only sighted nine of these.

Cheers.

Just realised this 1922 topic could be considered off topic given the original thread. My fault :dodgy: Maybe someone who knows how could put it to bed somewhere else :idea:

[robbiegal]

some varieties collectors specialise in those 1922 varieties.
my hubby used to take a keen interest , he has a special calibrator (?) for measuring them
Fred even bought a set off him years ago and used them for one of his articles

[autocoupler]

Hi Autocoupler.
It is hard to mistake the narrow dates with the wide dates as all the wide dates have FBL lettering and English obverses. That combination is rare in the non wide dates with only 3 dies known and they all have the standard 9 which is at a different angle to the wide dates.
For the wide dates it gets tricky to identify the individual dies. There are 2 dies that developed very similar die cracks through MONWE, one of which had the tail on the 9. Another die also had a tail. There was also an extra wide date that developed a die clash (spur) and 2 wide dates with no distinguishing features but the 9s are at slightly different angles.
I'm hazarding to guess but the wide dates might have been dies prepared in London and sent straight to Perth in 1922 as there is a record of London sending dies. Might explain why those dies struck superior coins.

Hi nealeffendi, I did ask this question before, I'm guessing it went unnoticed. When you speak of the 3 known dies of the non wide date 1922 pennies having the standard 9, are you referring to the common left leaning 9, or something else?
Cheers.

[nealeffendi]

Hi Autocoupler, yes I am referring to the standard left leaning 9. The standard 9 is rare with the English obverse but about half the Indians are FBL. Roughly 80% of all 1922 pennies are standard left 9 CBL English, about 8-10% are Indian standard 9 left CBL, ditto for the FBL and 2-3% are the various wide dates. I know some collectors refer to a lower 9 left leaning 9 but I have never noticed it so if it exists I lumped it in with the standard.
I'll finally be getting a digital camera this winter and once I learn how to use it I'll upload images.

[robbiegal]

you guys need a 1922 thread
this is interesting stuff

[ausjack]

Here ya go Mark I'll start one as I'm finding this all very interesting, thanks team :good:

[stevo1962]

This is my lone 1922 penny in my collection with a lovely die crack through the date and a couple of extra
dots and dashes on the obverse

[autocoupler]

Hi Autocoupler, yes I am referring to the standard left leaning 9. The standard 9 is rare with the English obverse but about half the Indians are FBL. Roughly 80% of all 1922 pennies are standard left 9 CBL English, about 8-10% are Indian standard 9 left CBL, ditto for the FBL and 2-3% are the various wide dates. I know some collectors refer to a lower 9 left leaning 9 but I have never noticed it so if it exists I lumped it in with the standard.
I'll finally be getting a digital camera this winter and once I learn how to use it I'll upload images.

Thanks markn for rearranging the posts.

Thanks Nealeffendi, I just needed to get it straight in my mind that that's what you meant. I have sighted the four combinations of left leaning 9 common width dates you mentioned, but not having put too much time into this group was unaware of the percentages apart from the accepted 80% London to 20% Indian for the overall mintage.

I do find the group of date widths that display the more upright to slightly right leaning 9 and referred to as wide dates very interesting as well. I did mention in an earlier post that there are some within this group of upright 9's that are nearly always mistaken for wide dates, when in fact they can be the same width as the left leaning 9 common date width coins  or narrower, and much scarcer in my opinion.
I'm working on putting up some pics to support descriptions, but in the mean time I'll attempt to list what I've sighted, 14 examples so far. To avoid confusion I don't differentiate between the slight change in angle of the 9 within the upright 9 groups.

This should make defining the various date widths much easier. Instead of trying to align the angled right edge of the foot on the last 2 with a rim denticle below, or indeed trying to measure the complete date width with a vernier gauge etc, simply use the left edge of the foot on the last 2 as a sighter. I find this method much less cumbersome and more definitive. Easy as falling off a log. To explain further, for all 1922 pennies the date numeral 1 aligns centrally between two denticles below. I call the denticle to the imediate right of the numeral 1, denticle #1. Counting to the right it will be seen that the left edge of the foot on the last 2 aligns with the centre of denticle 15 for all Group 1 and Group 2 coins. For Group 3 coins the alignment is left edge of denticle 15, Group 4 is right edge of denticle 15 and Group 5 is left edge of denticle 16. N.B. The alignment is taken on an imaginary line from the centre of the coin.

Descriptions of many of the following have been documented and published by others in the past and are freely available on web sites, books and magazines. There is however the odd source where an instance of vague description may have muddied the waters a little particularly where visual evidence was not available. Maybe groups 2 and 3 fit in there, but I'm yet to locate any direct reference to these coins.
     

GROUP ONE, COMMON DATE WIDTH, LEFT LEANING 9.
1. London FBL, 2. London CBL, 3. Indian FBL, 4. Indian CBL.
All the same date width.
Refer to example put up by Stevo1962. The angle of the 9 is obviously leaning to the left when compared to the examples below.  

GROUP TWO, COMMON DATE WIDTH, UPRIGHT 9.
1. London FBL. Just the one type for this group.
Same date width as GROUP ONE where the left edge of the foot on last 2 aligns with centre of 15th denticle.
In my opinion, the combination of the upright 9 with this date width makes it EX. Scarce.


GROUP THREE, NARROW DATE WIDTH, UPRIGHT 9.
All London FBL and displaying a date width one half a denticle thickness narrower than for groups ONE & TWO, i.e. left edge of denticle 15. There are four types for this group with all displaying the same date width, but do differ from one another in the degree of slight rotation of the 9, and one having a small spur on the left side of the foot on the first 2 which gives it a different denticle alignment. The photo below is of the one that displays the spur on first 2 ( aligns at left edge of denticle 9 ), the first 2 on the other three examples in this group all align with the centre of denticle 9. These differences are all very subtle so no point in adding more photos. All unique and very scarce just the same.


GROUP FOUR, WIDE DATE, UPRIGHT 9.
All London FBL and displaying a date width one full denticle thickness wider than for group THREE. There are at least three types for this group. Whilst displaying the same date width, they differ slightly in the positioning of the first 2, as well as a small spike like protrusion from the tail of the 9 on one example. Scarce.
Coin #1. Left side of foot on first 2 aligns between denticles 9 and 10.


Group Four Wide Date #2. Spike from tail of 9.
Same numeral positioning as #1.


Group Four Wide Date #3. Left side of foot on FIRST 2 aligns
with left edge of 10th denticle. Other numeral positions same as for #1 and #2.


GROUP FIVE, EXTRA WIDE DATE, UPRIGHT 9.
All London FBL and displaying a date width one full denticle gap wider than for group FOUR. There are two types for this group, with one displaying the spike like protrusion from the tail of the 9 being the only variance. Scarce to very scarce.

[autocoupler]

Just a note to say some further info has been added over the last few days.

[ausjack]

Very nicely done auto, top job mate :ok:

[autocoupler]

Very nicely done auto, top job mate :ok:

Thanks AJ, but still learning about light and shadows etc. Anyhow, I think the subtleties of the subject matter can be seen OK. Have a gander at the pics below, they are of coins from the extremely scarce group two.
One coin has flats around the complete circumference of the rim , while the other shows evidence of flats on a partial section of the rim.I find this very intriguing considering their scarceness ( just nine examples sighted by me in nine years ), that two coins of this type could have befallen a similar fate. Of the 9 coins sighted, they all display almost perfect central strikes with clean square rims, particularly on the obverse. Could be some back shed activities no doubt, would a vending machine mishap cause this effect, and what about problems at the Mint? Now there's something to think about, I'm wondering if there are any known events from the past where equipment faults during the minting process has possibly been the cause of anomalies such as this. I know, it all sounds a bit like ancient aliens!! Thinking about the quality of the strikes, in my opinion even better than other acknowledged superior strikes of this year, could they have been part of a special run that was aborted due to technical issues? All conjectural and a little tongue in cheek, but I do love a what if or two.  
 

[stevo1962]

My best result for recent returns was this one which was a surprise
considering it cost me only $39 on ebay

     http://www.pcgs.com/Cert/30435038.html

This is my lone 1922 penny in my collection with a lovely die crack through the date and a couple of extra
dots and dashes on the obverse