1946 penny slabbs

[chookcity]

Is it time to get all your 1946 pennies and send them off to PCGS?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/360503111835?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

You have to love ebay and Greg McDonald. :whistle2:

[enworb]

Madness!!!!!!

[MobOfRoos]

At the risk of  :dead_horse:

Its because of the confusion between the Sheldon and ANDA grading systems.

The seller and presumably the bidders are assuming that AU50 = aUNC.
In reality that coin is closer to gVF to aEF and would have a book value of no more than $400.

It is one of the reasons that I never buy slabbed coins.

[trout]

At the risk of  :dead_horse:

Its because of the confusion between the Sheldon and ANDA grading systems.

The seller and presumably the bidders are assuming that AU50 = aUNC.
In reality that coin is closer to gVF to aEF and would have a book value of no more than $400.

It is one of the reasons that I never buy slabbed coins.

I agree that the Sheldon scale is not really combatable with the anda standard and a slabbed coin will always appear to be a lesser grade but you have to understand the Sheldon system to equate this.
Unfortunately a great deal of Aussie collectors are being duped/misguided by the grades put on the slabbed coins due to this.

I feel (unfortunately) that a lot of sellers/dealers are taking advantage of this at the moment because of the apparent increase in grades and the fact that they are graded by TPG's.

The old story of "Buy the coin not the slab" will always apply

[wwwww]

At the risk of  :dead_horse:

Its because of the confusion between the Sheldon and ANDA grading systems.

The seller and presumably the bidders are assuming that AU50 = aUNC.
In reality that coin is closer to gVF to aEF and would have a book value of no more than $400.

It is one of the reasons that I never buy slabbed coins.

AU50 is only worth $100 imo; But the slab says AU55 which would put it at around EF and a value of around $250. To me this is just an overgrading seller trying to pass his opinion off as PCGS'. PCGS graded this coin AU55, they didn't give it an Australian about UNC grading so the already inflated McD value is invalid anyway.

[trout]

Here is yet another one
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1946-Australian-Penny-Pcgs-Au58-Awesome-Coin-/110971143873?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D18%26pmod%3D360503111835%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D3278042242355547932

Where are these people getting their values from?
This is a $500 coin yet the seller states this is valued at $2000:dodgy:

[Bigfellani5]

1) Waist of money slabbing
2) Seller is a shark
3) Buyer is an idiot

IMHO ebay needs a huge overhaul on selling anything that is not a packaged by the mint item....this includes slabbed coins. On aussie ebay you should only be allowed to use an Aussie grading standard on aussie coins and banknotes and should not be allowed to show at all the grading supplied by a non Australian entity that is not proficient in grading using an Aussie grading standard. This way no buyer can be deceived like this listing shows. No mention of a catalogue value should be allowed...again this will assist in not pushing an auction price up to a ficticious value. Lastly I would have it so that no gradings at all can be mentioned unless you are a professional dealer with a brick and mortar shop. There are too many hobbiest/backyarders that just do not know how to grade (or dont have the experience to grade) or dont give a damn they are ripping someone off or have no care about the industry. I hear too often of real gradings and ebay gradings. This can not be good.

The amount of customers I have coming into my shop asking opinions on overpaid coin and banknotes because of incorrectly graded items on ebay is getting higher and higher. I would argue there is no confidence in the market in general with predecimal coins and banknotes. From a dealer point of view there is no point listing decent material on ebay because of this ever increasing problem of buyers getting ripped off causing no confidence in the market. This means true pricing is just not there any more.

I know what I am saying will annoy a few of you but the reality is that a good 70 to 80% of ebay sellers do not know how to grade and even a greater percentage of buyers do not know how to grade. A huge percentage of buyers do not know the difference between different grading standards used by different counties. So even though it will annoy a lot of the hobbiests that sell on ebay some very strict rules are needed to prevent buyers getting ripped off like what has happened above.

[trout]

1) Waist of money slabbing
2) Seller is a shark
3) Buyer is an idiot

IMHO ebay needs a huge overhaul on selling anything that is not a packaged by the mint item....this includes slabbed coins. On aussie ebay you should only be allowed to use an Aussie grading standard on aussie coins and banknotes and should not be allowed to show at all the grading supplied by a non Australian entity that is not proficient in grading using an Aussie grading standard. This way no buyer can be deceived like this listing shows. No mention of a catalogue value should be allowed...again this will assist in not pushing an auction price up to a ficticious value. Lastly I would have it so that no gradings at all can be mentioned unless you are a professional dealer with a brick and mortar shop. There are too many hobbiest/backyarders that just do not know how to grade (or dont have the experience to grade) or dont give a damn they are ripping someone off or have no care about the industry. I hear too often of real gradings and ebay gradings. This can not be good.

The amount of customers I have coming into my shop asking opinions on overpaid coin and banknotes because of incorrectly graded items on ebay is getting higher and higher. I would argue there is no confidence in the market in general with predecimal coins and banknotes. From a dealer point of view there is no point listing decent material on ebay because of this ever increasing problem of buyers getting ripped off causing no confidence in the market. This means true pricing is just not there any more.

I know what I am saying will annoy a few of you but the reality is that a good 70 to 80% of ebay sellers do not know how to grade and even a greater percentage of buyers do not know how to grade. A huge percentage of buyers do not know the difference between different grading standards used by different counties. So even though it will annoy a lot of the hobbiests that sell on ebay some very strict rules are needed to prevent buyers getting ripped off like what has happened above.

I tend to agree with most of what you said except where it comes to the part where you say that simply because you own a shop and make a living out of buying/selling coins it makes you a better grader than anyone else.
That is a huge assumption.
I will agree that the B&M operators are more carefull and honest with their grades tho.

[acrellin]

I'd clarify the above points and would say that the confusion occurs when grades under the Sheldon system are translated into the descriptive system, not necessarily just into the grades that ANDA has suggested people use as a guide, nor those printed in the McDonald and Renniks books.

While it's obvious whoever bought that 1946 penny has paid much more than they needed to for it, were they really ripped off? It was a 99 cent auction after all, and any shill bidding aside, there wasn't anyone pushing the winner's bids up. The buyer has only got himself to blame.

More than a few people buying (and selling) coins these days do it because they think there's a quick buck in it, they'll come and go. We only need to see the figures that obviously counterfeit coins still go for on eBay to see that some people will do their dough no matter what checks and balances are put in place - coins described as counterfeits still sell for hundreds of dollars!

Any collector that's serious takes the time to actually learn the market for the items they're interested in - they'll still makes mistakes, but they won't be as daft as that. Any seller that's serious understands the value in not stiffing their customers blind - eBay just isn't the venue for this kind of product or trader at the moment apparently.

[wwwww]

Here is yet another one
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1946-Australian-Penny-Pcgs-Au58-Awesome-Coin-/110971143873?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D18%26pmod%3D360503111835%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D3278042242355547932

Where are these people getting their values from?
This is a $500 coin yet the seller states this is valued at $2000:dodgy:

Probably from McDonalds - it's one of the coins that's heavily overvalued - my McD book says $1800, I'm guessing $2000 is value in the newer one. $500 is more realistic for this coin.

1) Waist of money slabbing
2) Seller is a shark
3) Buyer is an idiot

IMHO ebay needs a huge overhaul on selling anything that is not a packaged by the mint item....this includes slabbed coins. On aussie ebay you should only be allowed to use an Aussie grading standard on aussie coins and banknotes and should not be allowed to show at all the grading supplied by a non Australian entity that is not proficient in grading using an Aussie grading standard. This way no buyer can be deceived like this listing shows. No mention of a catalogue value should be allowed...again this will assist in not pushing an auction price up to a ficticious value. Lastly I would have it so that no gradings at all can be mentioned unless you are a professional dealer with a brick and mortar shop. There are too many hobbiest/backyarders that just do not know how to grade (or dont have the experience to grade) or dont give a damn they are ripping someone off or have no care about the industry. I hear too often of real gradings and ebay gradings. This can not be good.

The amount of customers I have coming into my shop asking opinions on overpaid coin and banknotes because of incorrectly graded items on ebay is getting higher and higher. I would argue there is no confidence in the market in general with predecimal coins and banknotes. From a dealer point of view there is no point listing decent material on ebay because of this ever increasing problem of buyers getting ripped off causing no confidence in the market. This means true pricing is just not there any more.

I know what I am saying will annoy a few of you but the reality is that a good 70 to 80% of ebay sellers do not know how to grade and even a greater percentage of buyers do not know how to grade. A huge percentage of buyers do not know the difference between different grading standards used by different counties. So even though it will annoy a lot of the hobbiests that sell on ebay some very strict rules are needed to prevent buyers getting ripped off like what has happened above.

Would you buy off another dealer based on their grading just because they have a brick and mortar shop? If the answer is no then you can't really expect collectors to. The market has little faith in brick and mortar dealers on-line because their main advantage in the past was that collectors could view the coin in hand - that has little relevance on-line.

I've found the keys to selling coins on-line are quality and honest photographs, third party certification and unconditional return policies - if you follow these three points your coins will sell well.

[markn]

IMHO ebay needs a huge overhaul on selling anything that is not a packaged by the mint item....this includes slabbed coins. On aussie ebay you should only be allowed to use an Aussie grading standard on aussie coins and banknotes and should not be allowed to show at all the grading supplied by a non Australian entity that is not proficient in grading using an Aussie grading standard.

Nice idea in principal but who is going to arbiter compliance with Australian grading standards?  Most dealers either online or b&m dealers just aren't capable of doing so.  Just go and pick 10 of the same coins graded to the same level by 10 different ANDA dealers and you'll see a huge variation.

[Fordprefect]

IMHO ebay needs a huge overhaul on selling anything that is not a packaged by the mint item....this includes slabbed coins. On aussie ebay you should only be allowed to use an Aussie grading standard on aussie coins and banknotes and should not be allowed to show at all the grading supplied by a non Australian entity that is not proficient in grading using an Aussie grading standard.

Nice idea in principal but who is going to arbiter compliance with Australian grading standards?  Most dealers either online or b&m dealers just aren't capable of doing so.  Just go and pick 10 of the same coins graded to the same level by 10 different ANDA dealers and you'll see a huge variation.

Is there an Australian Standard for Grading Decimal issues.
If there is, point me in the right direction.

[markn]

I'd clarify the above points and would say that the confusion occurs when grades under the Sheldon system are translated into the descriptive system, not necessarily just into the grades that ANDA has suggested people use as a guide, nor those printed in the McDonald and Renniks books.

While it's obvious whoever bought that 1946 penny has paid much more than they needed to for it, were they really ripped off? It was a 99 cent auction after all, and any shill bidding aside, there wasn't anyone pushing the winner's bids up. The buyer has only got himself to blame.

More than a few people buying (and selling) coins these days do it because they think there's a quick buck in it, they'll come and go. We only need to see the figures that obviously counterfeit coins still go for on eBay to see that some people will do their dough no matter what checks and balances are put in place - coins described as counterfeits still sell for hundreds of dollars!

Any collector that's serious takes the time to actually learn the market for the items they're interested in - they'll still makes mistakes, but they won't be as daft as that. Any seller that's serious understands the value in not stiffing their customers blind - eBay just isn't the venue for this kind of product or trader at the moment apparently.

All excellent points.  I believe the key to the whole Sheldon grading vs other systems is educating collectors (and more than a few dealers) that they are different.  That's all, just different.  There are without doubt unscrupulous sellers who seek to leverage the lack of knowledge that some collectors have and this is a shame.  But there are also collectors out there who will NOT allow themselves to be educated and will pay huge dollars for obvious forgeries, cleaned coins, altered dates, and other problems coins thinking they know everything.

[trout]

i am one of those collectors that hated the very thought of using the Sheldon system and shoved my head very firmly into the sand.
I have since come to see that this is quite a valid system of grading.
As Mark has said it IS different and if you take the time to study it and equate the Sheldon grades with anda grades it will slowly make sense.
The secret for me was to ignore the prefix (eg EF,AU and MS) and concentrate on  the numbers ( 45,50,58 64 and so on) you will be able to come to grips with it a whole lot easier.
Pretty similar to MPH and KPH  60mph=100kph, Same speeds but just a different way of measuring them.

This Sheldon grading has been around for a while and like it or not it IS becoming used more in Aus.

You may not want to embrace this system but it IS to everyones advantage to learn how to understand it.
 Instead of just chucking rocks at somthing you don't undestand , Why not take the time and learn how it works.

The fear of this sytem will go away and be replaced by knowlage and understanding if you simply (like I have done) pull your head out of the sand and make the effort to educate yourself.

I am now able to cross referance grades in anda and sheldon with some degree of accuracy and can buy coins graded Sheldon style and know what to expect as an anda gade coin :good:

[acrellin]

Just to be clear Trout, the grades aren't "ANDA" grades, they're descriptive grades. ANDA did of course produce a pamphlet that was intended to help collectors to learn how to identify coins in the various descriptive grades, but these same descriptions are used by collectors all over the world, 99.9999% if whom have never heard of ANDA. Descriptive grading isn't unique to ANDA in any way.

Ejamakation is definitely the way forward, regardless of the grading system or standard being used.