1943M Threeepence Double Die Obverse

markn · February 17, 2014, 01:01:30 PM

A post over at CCF recently of a "double struck" 1943M threepence looked for all the world to me like it had a "hub doubled" or "double die" obverse. I've since confirmed this with emu666 who agreed with my attribution. He's since located 2 other specimens and I've managed to find one from a blurry eBay sellers image.

emu666 had not heard of this variety before. My research through back issues of ACR's/CAB have failed to find mention of it and I've not found anything about it online. There's no mention of it in Ian McConnelly's books either. Anyone heard of this before or found reference to it in sources I'm unaware of? If not, this could be an interesting new discovery.

Here's some pics. Note the split serifs, especially on the IM of IMP. This is a key indicator of hub-doubling. Machine doubling (or MDD) does not show this splitting of design elements and has a much more "shelf-like" appearance.

markn · February 17, 2014, 01:06:42 PM

Here's a close up of the designers initials "HP" below the truncation of the King's neck. Doubling is quite clear.

robbiegal · February 17, 2014, 04:35:00 PM

I have the '43 halfpenny with obverse doubling as well
so possibly the hubs at the Melbourne mint were wobbly that year

ausjack · February 17, 2014, 05:08:26 PM

are decimal and pre-decimal coins worth any more with doubling?

markn · February 17, 2014, 05:49:42 PM

Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='41989' dateline='1392619106'are decimal and pre-decimal coins worth any more with doubling?

Machine doubling, generally no. Hub doubling, sometimes yes.

robbiegal · February 17, 2014, 08:25:25 PM

AJ,
hub doubling attracts certain types of error collectors who have a particular interest in that error and as well, in the way it is formed

echidna · February 17, 2014, 09:37:01 PM

Definitely hub doubled.
Nice coin - haven't seen one of these before.

purplepennyhunter · February 18, 2014, 04:03:18 PM

No mention in Fosters Catalogue of Australian Coin Varieties 1964.

Fulvio · February 18, 2014, 10:02:37 PM

Quote from: 'ausjack' pid='41989' dateline='1392619106'are decimal and pre-decimal coins worth any more with doubling?

AJ, the MDD we see on decimals is a wear thing. The dies are slightly loose and wobble as they strike, producing a second strike slightly offset. Pretty common as we've seen with the zillion types on CoF 50¢ to name one.

Hob doubling is a completely different animal. The image is doubled on the hob, most likely from being double struck slightly offset. Its a Variety, not an Error, in that the dies produced from that hob are different from those produced from all other hobs, and of course all coins struck from them will be identical.

Think Incused Flags, or Large/Small varieties.

Nevol · February 18, 2014, 10:06:45 PM

I think there's scope for an article to send to CAB on this one, all it needs is someone to write and submit it.

Fulvio · February 18, 2014, 10:07:58 PM

Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='42138' dateline='1392723405'I think there's scope for an article to send to CAB on this one, all it needs is someone to write and submit it.

I nominate the guy who's got it, who I hear is not too shabby a wordsmith anyway. :angel:

markn · February 19, 2014, 02:12:00 PM

Quote from: 'Nevol' pid='42138' dateline='1392723405'I think there's scope for an article to send to CAB on this one, all it needs is someone to write and submit it.

I'd be happy to do that, wouldn't be a very long article though. And technically while I did identify what the variety was I didn't actually find the coin that was originally posted up on CCF. I don't want to steal anyone's thunder. Opinion?

Fulvio · February 19, 2014, 02:20:46 PM

Quote from: 'markn' pid='42185' dateline='1392781320'I don't want to steal anyone's thunder. Opinion?

Co-author it with the owner.

Nevol · February 19, 2014, 02:27:03 PM

Quote from: 'Fulvio' pid='42187' dateline='1392781846'
Quote from: 'markn' pid='42185' dateline='1392781320'I don't want to steal anyone's thunder. Opinion?
Co-author it with the owner.

Contact the OP on CCF, explain the situation, I'm sure he/she would be happy to be acknowledged as the discoverer of the error/variety. Probably would not divulge their real name, and that's to be expected.

Steveqld · February 19, 2014, 03:05:56 PM

I don't see anything wrong with you writing the article so long as the original "finder" is consulted and, if they so desire, recognized.

Not sure how long an article that would be and another option may be to write a longer article on the pre-decimal varieties identified on the forum recently eg Robsters varieties that aren't in Renniks catalogue or the 1927 "bridgeless nose" sixpence. I think Ian McConnell does a monthly article on varieties so he may be interested and start with something similar to "A number or new varieties from the folk on "Australian Coin Forum" recently...." and hence give the forum some promotion as per the other thread.

I'm sure there is enough to create some interest.