NGC Vs PCGS set registry

ausproofs · January 19, 2017, 03:17:59 AM

I can not talk about wedding set coins as I have zero knowledge and interest in them. However last time I graded NGC coins with PCGS none of the coins crossed at the same level. My observation is based on pre decimal coins.

Also PCGS allowed NGC coins to be added to to the registry sets for years and NGC is catching up.

I am not saying PCGS is perfect, however I can tell you even today most pre decimal coins will be graded harshly at PCGS.

wwwww · January 19, 2017, 10:06:16 AM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='104097' dateline='1484718857'
QuoteIt's just progress for TPG coins in Australia

It is NOT Progress at all, It is a step backwards and if this trend by PCGS isn't addressed then ALL of our PCGS graded coins will rapidly loose their value.
I have Hundreds of PCGS graded coins and this IS an issue that I am concerned about.

It's only a problem if PCGS' grades are actually slipping. I haven't observed this, and NGC is probably the least credible source for claiming it (as they are their biggest competitor).

If prices drop because of an increase in coins graded it just means prices are moving closer to their true values which represents the maturation of the market. Mature markets allow for more stable and fair pricing without risk margins factored in.

E.g. take the 1962 threepence vs the 1964 threepence in MS68.

About 8 years ago we sold one of each at $350. The populations of both were 3/0 which is worth much more than $350 but the market has to factor in the chance that more get graded so they traded at a discount.

Now the populations have increased to 4/0 and 10/0, considering the number of mint state pieces available the market clearly overestimated the number that would enter the ranks at MS68 so their prices have gone up with the 1962 trading at around $1700 and the 1964 trading at $740.

An even more extreme situation occurred with the 1957-Y Proof in PR67RD - we sold one for a record $12,250 in 2013 but since then only one additional piece was graded so when we had the opportunity to offer another for auction in 2015 it realised $22,300.

On the other hand the opposite effect can be seen with high grade decimal proofs as their populations have increased dramatically. Immature markets are highly speculative and while they can be highly profitable, they also carry huge risks.

This is why the maturation of markets is always a positive thing, yes some people will lose money in the process, some other people will make money but the end result is a market that is a lot safer to trade in with less big jumps or drops and overall more stable growth.

stevo1962 · January 19, 2017, 10:21:07 AM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='104099' dateline='1484722063'
QuoteI'm in the process of dumping my easy to obtain mid grade coins for rarer examples that will never be graded in bulk but that's just me on a quest to continually upgrade my collection.I think it's a case of keep moving or get left behind

What happens if this trend at PCGS continues or gets worse and your rarer examples get flooded out with overgraded/Market graded coins, Are you willing to take that sort of a "Hit" when the values plummet ?

I don't think there will be a surge in 1930 pennies or 1923 halfpennies being graded or any of the other rarities on my target list and I don't intend to pay retail for raw coins either .For me it's a case of buying coins that will still be in demand in the future and not the mass produced stuff the RAM spits out today but we all have our own strategies

gnome · January 19, 2017, 01:31:28 PM

As a fence sitter, I find this discussion very informative.

trout · January 19, 2017, 02:07:59 PM

I agree with most of what you have said Walter, Especially about where the Decimal coin market is maturing and finding its levels.
The pop numbers for certain decimals have more than doubled in the last year so that has obviously had a downward effect on the values of these because of the increased supply.
Maybe you haven't noticed a decline in the grading standards But I have since about a year ago, Primarily in the Decimal coins as I haven't noticed or even had many pre decimals graded in the last 12 months.

kchan1111 · January 20, 2017, 08:36:09 AM

Quote from: 'wwwww' pid='104124' dateline='1484782576'About 8 years ago we sold one of each at $350. The populations of both were 3/0 which is worth much more than $350 but the market has to factor in the chance that more get graded so they traded at a discount.

Now the populations have increased to 4/0 and 10/0, considering the number of mint state pieces available the market clearly overestimated the number that would enter the ranks at MS68 so their prices have gone up with the 1962 trading at around $1700 and the 1964 trading at $740.

Hey Walter, how did you work out the population at a specific point in time in the past? Was this just what you noted down in the past when you listed those coins? Or is this something you can look up today?

wwwww · January 20, 2017, 07:39:31 PM

Just something I noted at the time.

drakesterling · February 01, 2017, 07:54:07 AM

PCGS' reply to NGC's comments:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/974881/pcgs-grading

Eric

ausjack · February 01, 2017, 08:09:21 AM

I want to see a big fight between NGC and PCGS so AJPCGS can step in and take over :mocking:

Robster · February 01, 2017, 08:09:57 AM

:laughingneqw:

ausjack · February 01, 2017, 08:18:40 AM

Yes you can laugh Robster we I will rule the world :blink: :laugh2:

Well my own little world :blush2:

trout · February 01, 2017, 08:40:20 AM

I usually have at least one submission in the system at any given time But I haven't sent any more coins to be graded since August last year with PCGS and November last year with NGC.
The main reason that I have been primarily using PCGS is so that I can add to my registry sets But I am revaluating why I should spend the extra time effort and money using PCGS over NGC just to be able to compete in the PCGS set registry pissing contest.
My last submission to PCGS was a nightmare and I am very unhappy as to how that particular submission was handled and I haven't sent any more coins away to be graded by PCGS since.
I do have a couple of submissions worth of coins that I want to have graded for my sets But I am reluctant to send them to PCGS at the moment.
I can always send them to NGC as the last few submissions that I have sent them have been silky smooth and far more economical than if I had used the PCGS service.
The problem that I have doing this is I won't be able to add the coins to my PCGS set registry sets and using the NGC set registry software is a Bloody nightmare to use compared to using the PCGS software to add new coins to sets.

My slab album pages can accommodate both NGC and PCGS slabs and so will the various wooden storage boxes that I use to store my collections in So I will have to work out for myself If the set registry thing is worth the effort and continuing on with it.
I will for now I will just sit back for a while and let the dust settle before I send any more submissions away to be graded by either TPG

nealeffendi · February 01, 2017, 04:12:00 PM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='104693' dateline='1485900620'The problem that I have doing this is I won't be able to add the coins to my PCGS set registry sets and using the NGC set registry software is a Bloody nightmare to use compared to using the PCGS software to add new coins to sets.

My slab album pages can accommodate both NGC and PCGS slabs and so will the various wooden storage boxes that I use to store my collections in So I will have to work out for myself If the set registry thing is worth the effort and continuing on with it.
I will for now I will just sit back for a while and let the dust settle before I send any more submissions away to be graded by either TPG

How safe are wooden storage boxes (wood fumes, varnish fumes might cause tarnish) as far as coins go?
As for NGC Vs PGCS..... I gripe about the PCGS sets but NGC is just pathetic:dash1: As an example the shilling set. Top place is Benchmark (only there because all the cracked out and now PCGS coins were never deleted). 2nd place has just 5 rubbish coins and I'm in 3rd with 3 coins. Frankly speaking I cannot see why the 2nd place rubbish gets so many points. Their 1922 shilling is just VF (details) at 576 points, 1924 shilling VG10 is 1870 points, 1925 shilling F15 at 648 points, 1935 shilling AU53 824 points and 1942S shilling AU58 is 98 points (total 4016 points).
My 3rd place set is 1931 shilling MS64 1173 points, 1938 shilling MS66 505 points and 1952 shilling MS65 127 points (total 1805 points).
Can anyone explain how virtually bullion grade coins beat high MS coins? On the PCGS registry the totals would be (me) 325 points to (them) 203 points.
No wonder the NGC registry is gathering cobwebs.

ausjack · February 01, 2017, 05:03:11 PM

To me this is what happens to big business when they know they have ya by the sort and curlies, like any other business that get a monopoly and are always changing things to suit them selves and to justify the BS prices they charge or some smart arse educated idiot to justify why they should get paid so much :dodgy: I hate how everything has to change just for the sake of change and to justify exorbitant prices :dash1: