PCGS HK grading standards

[ausjack]

So in other words, your getting an inferior product for your money, so like the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

[ausjack]

Don't worry Eric I'll still use you if I want anything graded :friends:

[ausjack]

I'd just like to make a few things clear so, please don't get me wrong and think I'm dead against TPG's as I'm not as I have a few my self but I try and only get coins done that are truly worthy of being graded unlike some people that put in 20,000 coin submissions in one go and just flood the market for a quick buck and this sort of thing takes away from the better graded coins as newbies think it's just a total ripoff. Some TPG's are also only in it for the money and this too hurts collecting as you can see by a lot of comments on FB that they have lost faith in dealers and TPG's and think coin collecting is just a big con.

I also think the big TPG's should do the right thing and sometimes they don't like, why don't they call the 2002-2009 wedding coins what they are, a specimen coin and shouldn't get an MS grading..just my thoughts on that as PCGS will not admit they made a mistake but it's not a problem for NGC to call them specimen..funny that.

Some of the TPG's are just full on out to rip people off and you can find heaps of eg's if you look around and here's just a couple from ebay (not that they're much help as they don't do anything to stop it) :@ but interesting to find out what one's to try and stay clear of. http://www.ebay.com/gds/GEC-NAC-Coin-Grading-Review-/10000000003647183/g.html
http://www.ebay.com/gds/NNC-COIN-GRADING-NATIONAL-NUMISTMATIC-CERTIFICATION-/10000000002539596/g.html
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Coin-Buyers-Beware-/10000000001577458/g.html
and other places to find info like the old ccf and even here if the question was asked https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15389
Even our own Mr Eric has a bit of a write up but it's not mentioning good or bad just when he first got into them http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for-sale/news-wire/news-wire/australias-professional-coin-grading-service-pcgs

So see I'm not dead against, just anything that looks shonky that can do damage to our hobby as you can see the damage these things do and drive people away instead of bringing them in..just my thoughts so now you can hang me :zomby:

[trout]

1. As ausproofs has shown, the coins are sent to the US for grading. I can also confirm that PCGS has said to me that the coins are graded in the US. Having said that, they are obviously not photographed in the US. Since the fees in HK are lower, it stands to reason that they're not going to put the extra cost of "Secure Plus" images for the HK coins, to help reduce costs.

This is where the waters get murky.
From what I have read the coins go the HK and are then sent to the US, They are then sent directly from the US back to Australia, So it makes absolutely NO sense that the coins are Not imaged in the States because how the hell can that Not happen when they are encapsulated in the States ( The HK images are of the coins in the slabs, Not unlike the NGC images are) and sent from there.

Also it isn't just a couple of collectors that have noticed the degraded grading standards of the HK submissions there are quite a few that have noticed it, Just because you yourself say that everything is hunky dory doesn't automatically make it so, That is YOUR opinion and Not an absolute Fact either.

[drakesterling]

This is where the waters get murky.
From what I have read the coins go the HK and are then sent to the US, They are then sent directly from the US back to Australia, So it makes absolutely NO sense that the coins are Not imaged in the States because how the hell can that Not happen when they are encapsulated in the States ( The HK images are of the coins in the slabs, Not unlike the NGC images are) and sent from there.

The coins are sent from HK to the US. Then they're graded and sent back to HK. HK photographs them and ships them back to the owners or holds coins to be picked up. This makes sense, as HK does not charge an additional fee for quality photos and instead does their lower-quality photos. This is how HK can charge cheaper rates.

[trout]

Hong Kong submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/SubmissionForm/HongKongEnglishForm.pdf

US submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usaform.pdf

The pricing for modern submissions at the HK office is only $1 cheaper than the same submission sent to the US and 1979 is the earliest date can be sent using that submission from HK and yet the US submissions can be as early as 1965, You loose a lot for a lousy dollar especially considering the crap images supplied by the HK office.
Economy and regular submissions from HK are $25 and $45 where the same submissions to the US cost $20 and $32.

So it looks like it is more expensive to use the HK office if your coin is dated before 1979  which includes the first 15 years of Australian decimal coins.

If it is more expensive to use the HK office for coins pre 1979 and the images provided are crap then the only reason I can see for using that office is because of the generous grades assigned because nothing else seems to make any sense to use the HK office.

[drakesterling]

Hong Kong submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/SubmissionForm/HongKongEnglishForm.pdf

US submission form
https://www.pcgs.com/submissionform/usaform.pdf

The pricing for modern submissions at the HK office is only $1 cheaper than the same submission sent to the US and 1979 is the earliest date can be sent using that submission from HK and yet the US submissions can be as early as 1965, You loose a lot for a lousy dollar especially considering the crap images supplied by the HK office.
Economy and regular submissions from HK are $25 and $45 where the same submissions to the US cost $20 and $32.

So it looks like it is more expensive to use the HK office if your coin is dated before 1979  which includes the first 15 years of Australian decimal coins.

If it is more expensive to use the HK office for coins pre 1979 and the images provided are crap then the only reason I can see for using that office is because of the generous grades assigned because nothing else seems to make any sense to use the HK office.

Large submitters don't pay these rates. That is how Michael Cotton was able to send economy and modern coins cheaper than me (I send my coins to the US and I don't get his special pricing, sadly). 

Sorry, it looks like I was wrong for the individual rates. HK is more expensive. Anyway, there are other reasons to submit to HK, such as proximity, saving on shipping, wanting to deliver the coins personally, etc. I would be reluctant to suggest that the "only" reason to send coins to HK is to get generous grades.

Anyway, I just can't see why PCGS would purposefully try to overgrade coins from the HK submission centre. If it's to grow business, why not just overgrade everything?

I suggest you contact HK directly and ask them why you should send your coins to HK instead of the US, as it would be an interesting question (just leave out the accusation that you reckon it's because they are more generous with their grades). I'd be interested to hear their response.

[trout]

To be completely honest I have grown very very tired of trying to get honest answers from PCGS, They either completely ignore my emails or they give me a line of BS hoping I will believe it and stop asking awkward questions.
Maybe the situation with the boosted grades from the HK office will get sorted out after what feels to me to be a promotional period ends, Time will tell.
I have noticed that one of our members is offering a coin for sale here and it is also mentioned that this particular PCGS graded coin is NOT from a HK submission, You can see what I am getting at here.
I think that many of our members here when looking at a PCGS coin up for sale/auction will discount it if they notice that the coin was part of a HK submission.
There is some evidence that these PCGS coins from HK are suspect But nothing solid as yet But as always where there is smoke there is usually a fire.

[nealeffendi]

This is where the waters get murky.
From what I have read the coins go the HK and are then sent to the US, They are then sent directly from the US back to Australia, So it makes absolutely NO sense that the coins are Not imaged in the States because how the hell can that Not happen when they are encapsulated in the States ( The HK images are of the coins in the slabs, Not unlike the NGC images are) and sent from there.

The coins are sent from HK to the US. Then they're graded and sent back to HK. HK photographs them and ships them back to the owners or holds coins to be picked up. This makes sense, as HK does not charge an additional fee for quality photos and instead does their lower-quality photos. This is how HK can charge cheaper rates.

And with cheaper rates (and crappy photos) the seller gets fewer bids. False economy as saving $10 on a photo doesn't recoup the frequently BIG hits taken from coins selling cheaply. Of those 50 odd HK purchases of mine I reckon 10 were overgraded (they don't compare with comparison pieces with the MS65 Canberra the worst example and clearly not equal to any of the MS64 Canberra's I have on eye appeal, dings/bagging surface originality etc), 30 were ho-hum to reasonable for grade and 10 were nice :yahoo:for grade. They were all at a bargain level (like '54 Commemorative in MS65 for under $200 from Cotton) in eBay auctions so price wise I've done well.
Probably 30 of my purchases are Cotton coins so I'm not complaining about the deluge of coins that they have put on the market. Not sure how they can make money with results like a MS64 '44S threepence for $11.85 (even if they had rolls of them at bullion price they still have to subtract ebay and Paypal fees, plus PCGS fees). Maybe Cotton is getting a big enough discount to make it worthwhile or maybe he has enough wins on the few gem grade coins to balance out?

[nealeffendi]

Eric, Are you sure HK modern is 1979? The PCGS Asia (HK) page that comes up states that Modern Non Gold (1955 to present) is 16USD.

[trout]

Eric, Are you sure HK modern is 1979? The PCGS Asia (HK) page that comes up states that Modern Non Gold (1955 to present) is 16USD.

Have a look at the links I have provided above Neil, Definitely a 1979 cut off for HK Modern submissions at $15 a pop.

[wwwww]

They changed it 5 months ago:
https://www.pcgsasia.com/article/services-and-fees-revised?l=en

[Cockatoo Coins]

I think where the confusion is coming from in regards to the HK coins is when it comes to show gradings, I sent several thousand through HK for grading in the US before I changed contracts to go direct to the US and never had an issue with grade bias (my contract had trueviews not those slab ones too). I did however submit some coins to a HK Show which had onsite grading 2 or so years ago as they were requesting additional coins and gave great rates, these were completed within 2 days of arriving in HK so definitely done there. I'm sure under the pressure of getting a large submissions done under show conditions and timeframes it could potentially lead to an increase in error rates but you would need to find a way to distinguish show coins from the US graded coins in order to justify any claim to this being true.