PCGS HK grading standards

[trout]

Think about this Trout, I'd estimate about 100,000 Aussie coins have gone through HK, at a 99% grading accuracy rate there'd be 1000 grading mistakes out there and if they all go to the market at once you'd inevitably see lots of them and in the same way you'd notice 1 bad driver instead of 99 good ones, you end up remembering each mistake ignoring the hundreds of correct grades along the way.

I am Not saying that ALL the coins submitted via the HK office are badly graded, What I am saying is that the consistency of the grading standards that are coming from the HK office is "Noticeably" of a lower standard than that of the coins submitted through the US office.
It's Not a case of simply noticing the antics of one bad driver on the road at all, If it was we would be noticing the same issue with the US graded coins which is clearly NOT the case.
I fully understand why you are trying to hide this issue under the carpet because of your vested interest in maintaining PCGS's reputation But I would also presume that it would be in yours and our best interest to rectify this lower standard of grading AND the lousy images that are currently coming out of the Hong Kong office that  have the potential to affect the value of not only collectors coins But also the dealers inventories as well.
Denying the existence of this problem won't make it go away and as you are in a far better position to exert your influence on PCGS to resolve this issue than I or many others here I am hopeful that you can be successful where we would simply be ignored.

[ausjack]

I wouldn't be one bit surprised if there is some sort of kickback like there was between some of the FB admin and apcgs but they still deny this but you can seen now that so many have been burnt from apcgs that they don't stand up for and delete posts like they used to. Some FB pages would have to be getting some sort of kickback from others that promote things they shouldn't, gee one page has a rule about no advertising but then they happily give stuff away from a "sponsor" but if you say anything about adverting and double standards, as it is, your post is very quickly deleted. There's always kickback all over the place, even our gov gives and receives them.

It would be very interesting to know the order of who the biggest graders are, so far it would have to be cotton first as that's what he's been saying for quite a few years now and then I thought it would be a close second between Walter and Eric so maybe we can get them to fight :mocking:

This sounds like another great mystery of the world that olny a very rare few get to know the truth and I think that's the way a lot would like to keep it..YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH..sorry I can't help my self :laugh2:

[wwwww]

If you find 10 mistakes in 50 then that is evidence of poor consistency but if you find 1 in 50 then it can just be a statistical anomaly.

Realistically we're talking about numbers like 1 in a 100 so the sample space required for a decent level of confidence is in the thousands.

I'm not trying to hide anything here, I'm just giving the information as I have. As stated I've reserved my opinion because I haven't studied enough coins in detail for a statistically meaningful conclusion.

Rememeber PCGS has a guarantee which they pay out generously on, they don't want to make mistakes so if they do start to get a higher ratio of guarantee submissions they will definitely do something about it.

[nealeffendi]

Walter, what happened to the PCGS announcement back in 2012 that they would be GRADING in HK? Did they stop the grading after they set up the grading facilities or did they find too many problems before they started grading?
Also, I understand the SUBMISSION office in HK may be too small to have grading facilities (its an office suite in Kowloon, high rent area) but doesn't mean that the grading facilities cannot be elsewhere in HK (say in an industrial park in the New Territories). So is it CERTAIN that they send them to the US? (especially as they need ready access to facilities when they offer grading services at a number of coin shows in HK and nearby countries every year?)

[wwwww]

They always tell me I need to get orders in before a certain date to get them added to this month's shipment so they ship them somewhere. It's possible they're going to Shanghai as they have a grading centre there, I'll have a read of your 2012 link later, I'm on my phone now.

They could have another office im HK but why would they only send shipments once a month?

[ausproofs]

Here  you go folks, this is what I was told in Sept 2017 regarding the submission process. Note the sentence in bold letters. They do send the coins to US.
.......................
Thank you for your email.

There are two ways to submit your coins to PCGS Hong Kong Submission Centre:

(1)          Drop off or mail your coin submission to the PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center.

Mail Address:
PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center
Room 11A-14, 11/F
Tower 3, China Hong Kong City
Kowloon, Hong Kong
         
           *Notify the PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center by emailing a copy of the downloadable submission form to info@pcgsAsia.com or
             faxing a copy to +852 2194 6628
           *All packages must be addressed to PCGS Hong Kong Submission Center.
           *All submissions should be packaged securely and must be accompanied by a PCGS Hong Kong submission form.

Coins and Banknotes submitted for grading will be delivered to U.S. for grading around twice a month.

You must be a Collectors Club member to submit coins. The fee for joining PCGS Collectors Club member is USD 69 per year.

(2)          Submit to PCGS Authorized dealer in your country.
               Please visit http://www.pcgs.com/dealers/ for more information about PCGS Authorized Dealer.

*All pattern coins, mint errors must be submitted at Regular service or higher.
All Services include PCGS Secure Service. *Contact PCGS Hong Kong for Bulk pricing.
Oversized Coin Holder fee is USD 10 per coin (when required). A USD 10 plus USD 1 per coin Handling Fee is applied to all submissions.

For more information about PCGS Service, please visit http://www.pcgsasia.com/Submit?l=en

We cannot provide any comments just base on the picture/photo of the coins / holdered coins.
Please be aware that customer has to submit physical coins or holdered coins in order to get the most accurate result of authentication.

We are pleased to inform you that we can send you back the graded coins to your address, we will ship the coins to you by EMS or Fedex, shipping fee USD, please see below are the information for your reference:

Please feel free to contact us if you have any question. Thank you and have a great day!

[nealeffendi]

Now I'm even more confused. Walter wrote that there is a grading centre in Shanghai and Ausproofs showed good evidence that HK submissions go to the US. Why does PCGS have a grading centre in Shanghai but then not use them for HK submissions? :huh:

[wwwww]

[quote="nealeffendi" pid='112952' dateline='1511537184']
Now I'm even more confused. Walter wrote that there is a grading centre in Shanghai and Ausproofs showed good evidence that HK submissions go to the US. Why does PCGS have a grading centre in Shanghai but then not use them for HK submissions? :huh:
[/quote]

HK is an SEZ, if shipments go from HK to mainland China they'll be subject to customs clearance and VAT. It looks like the Shianghai office is just for mainland submissions.

[ausjack]

So why send to HK, unless there's some catch like the coins get a better grade, this is really strange and a very odd way to run a business..something funny is going on that's for sure  :dodgy:

[wwwww]

I send through HK because it allows me to hand deliver orders.

[ausjack]

That's fair enough if your in the area but seems funny to send from here and not direct to the US unless something different is happening if HK is then sending the coins to the US and then back for less money then sending to US or if you know they grade higher going via HK..all sounds very fishy to me and there's more going on here than meets the eye :scratch_one-s_head:

[trout]

If the coins are sent to the US from the HK submission centre then Why then are they imaged differently?
When a coin is authenticated and graded at the Newport Beach facility it is graded first then imaged and the final process is to encapsulate them and post them off.
Why is it then that the HK submissions are imaged AFTER they have been encapsulated?

Is this telling us that the HK submissions can be identified by the graders as such and different standards are being applied to these submissions because the submissions are supposed to be anonymous and sending the coins directly to the encapsulation process instead of going to the imaging department first would be a dead giveaway that those submissions are from HK.

From what we can see on the ground here is that there IS a problem with the grading standards of the HK submissions and yet they are  Supposedly treated "Exactly" the same as any other submission sent directly to the US, This is NOT the case because the submissions are even imaged in a completely different and sub standard way to the US submissions.

I tend to agree with AJ in that there is something Fishy, Untoward or just plain Dodgy about the HK submissions and as collectors we have questions that Need to be answered honestly and accurately Or is this simply a case of the usual goods/services that come from China being cheaper and of a lesser standard than the same US product?

[wwwww]

Instead of speculating why don't you ask PCGS?

[drakesterling]

There are a lot of comments here, but I'll try to answer some of them here:

1. As ausproofs has shown, the coins are sent to the US for grading. I can also confirm that PCGS has said to me that the coins are graded in the US. Having said that, they are obviously not photographed in the US. Since the fees in HK are lower, it stands to reason that they're not going to put the extra cost of "Secure Plus" images for the HK coins, to help reduce costs.

2. Why should a collector send coins to HK? Because it's closer. Because you're in China and don't want to ship "overseas". And because the fees are cheaper too. There are a lot of reasons. A PCGS rep is on record saying that PCGS is trying to divert all world submitters to HK to try to grow that submission centre. It stands to reason that they are going to try to encourage this by having cheaper rates. The suggestion that people are sending coins to HK to "get better grades" is a furphy. If we let rumours like this persist, it'll be just another conspiracy theory that somehow has warped into fact.

3. It is cheaper for PCGS to send coins from HK to the US instead of having a grading team in HK. I know for a fact that large shippers can get up to 85% off their shipping fees. PCGS would definitely be considered a large shipper. The per unit cost of shipping thousands of coins to the US and back to HK would be small.

4. I haven't seen any evidence that HK grades less consistently than the US, but it is the same graders doing the grading. Ausjack wrote that he thinks some coins are "graded higher for bigger submissions or bigger customers". While we're all entitled to think whatever we want, it's important not to be distracted by allegations that are not backed by evidence. If we don't call out fake comments for what they are—a baseless assumption made by someone who just "thinks" something—some people will repeat your comment as though it is a fact, and before we know it, people are assuming it's real. Sort of like how people think Obama is a Muslim. Both are just made up assumptions (that may or may not be true), and need to be called out as such.

5. I send thousands of coins to PCGS. I'm not sure if I'm the third biggest submitter in Australia, but I suppose I'm not a small submitter. I can confirm that I don't get "better" grades than other people. In fact, I'm regularly disappointed with my grades. Let me say something else: If HK graded more loosely than the US, then I would send my coins to HK. So why don't I do this? Because it's just a furphy, a rumour that people are thinking because they have seen a small amount of coins that don't meet their expectation.

I have seen a lot of coins graded in the US that don't meet my expectations. But instead of assuming something for which I have no evidence (better grades for bigger submitters, the submission centre is loose, gradeflation, etc), I consider it to be just noise. I'm not going to get a perfect score with PCGS, and PCGS and I will disagree, no matter which centre we send our coins to.

6. It is very fashionable to have strong opinions about things these days, especially on social media and the internet where we can all be keyboard warriors. But the most important thing to think about whenever somebody makes a baseless comment is 1) Is it a fact (that may or may not be true) or just an "opinion" that that person is entitled to believe?

[ausjack]

Well most things are just opinions like TPG's them selves, some say worth the money others think it's a total ripoff and each to their own. I said a lot of things about apcgs and and how can one person be doing all the grading etc and about admin kickbacks on FB and now people are actually saying what really went on and not protecting apcgs like they did so not all claims are baseless as yes some are theories as you said but then sometimes theory becomes proven/fact as time goes by. I can see why the pcgs sellers rave about them saying how good and consistent they are as ya don't wanna kill the goose that lays the golden egg, same as how any salesman talks up their product or a product they want to sell :winkextra: