1930 English obverse penny possible die chip

[pra666]

There are I think 3 known English obverse 1930 pennies, two of which have been authenticated and graded by PCGS. I was looking for any die marker that could be used for authentication. There seems to be a tiny die chip in the same position on both of the coins. The top coin is the coin graded XF45, the second the one graded XF40, the third is a proof 1926 penny which has no die chip. The shape of this die chip is quite different for the two coins. The question is whether wear on the coin would be sufficient to explain the differences as given how few 1930 English obverse pennies must have been made, it would be hard to see whether any difference was due to die wear.

[echidna]

Looks like the same die chip on the first two, to me.

[pra666]

Looks like the same die chip on the first two, to me.

Thank you.

[autocoupler]

The second looks to be more pronounced, although a lesser grade. Would that mean it may be a later strike?

Excellent pics BTW

[pra666]

The second looks to be more pronounced, although a lesser grade. Would that mean it may be a later strike?

Excellent pics BTW

The die must have deteriorated fast as there are only three authenticated 1930 English obverse pennies, which I guess could have happened. 
We can thank PCGS for the pictures.

[fred lever]

Hi Peter, my quick answer is yes i have now seen that 'chip' on obverse images.

I had a quick look in my bulk file of images to do with 1929 to 1931 pennies and there it is.
At the moment i cannot tell who/which/where/what the images relate to, i was just scanning through dozens of anonymous obverses.

In the next couple of days I'll get my act together and sort out what i am looking at and the provenance of the images.

Cheers, Fred.

[pra666]

Thank you Fred. This may provide interesting.

[fred lever]

A progress report for Peter and all interested.

Like any simple question it is not that easy to answer as the point in question is a narrow focus on a big subject.
 But then when you widen your focus and start to ask questions like WHAT are we actually looking at and WHY, then more research has to be done before answering the simple question with confidence.
I had to re-learn and  get up to speed with my 1930  research because i have not really looked at coins for a year or so and my bloody memory is no good anymore!
Anyway,  I have now looked at around 200 coins and images and can see trends which need simplifying to give the  simple answer.

More work to do which i will chip away at next week when i can.
Yes in the olden days this would be a magazine article to write up.

Fred.

[echidna]

I think there are four - Two PCSG graded and two in the Nobles archive.

[fred lever]

Hi all, regarding how many genuine English obverse pennies exist.
The answer is 3 known.
I sifted through many images and while i have images of around 5 they are just reappearances of the same coins in auctions or articles.
To make it easy for myself i am just making up names for them right now.
This is why it is so important to identify not just the coins but the individual coins by coin markers.
Here is the sacred 3, in short.

1/ The Beck 66 coin.
This is the one that featured in the August 1966 issue of CR and is the one that turned up in the nobles auction  in April 98 lot 1740.
coin markers are simply marks all over the reverse and obverse. Once you map that lot of marks you cannot mistake it for anything else.

2/ The Black spot coin.
This is the one you see in PGS 38690913.
Coin markers are various but there is a particular black spot on the Obverse to the left of the bottom post about 6:30, hence the name. Other markers are a scrape on the King's headband, a chip on the "0" of 1930 and others.

3/ The Daly coin.
This is PCGS 30808335.
Its the nobles 2008 April auction coin lot 628 said to be from the Daley collection.
Some markers are a stain on the King's shoulder, a rim bump bottom of obverse and other minor marks that may or may not show up in images.

Just those simple coin marks are enough to recognize the coins as they are shown in auction and book article images.

Of course, i own about half dozen, and have viewed images of about 100 English obverse 1930 coins, AND ALL OF THOSE 106 ARE FAKES.
I have seen some beautiful coins with almost perfect shaped digits, real works of art, but of course they have the wrong reverse die type and most are altered 1936 coins.

There are just the 3 only genuine examples and all have been noted and documented over the decades.

Fred.

[fred lever]

I have done a fair bit of work now re-learning the 1930 subject, i had to read my own book on the subject!
And yes it leads to another coin magazine article.
Just answering and confirming the number of genuine English coins and the shoulder chip thing has made me very aware of my lack of knowledge about the obverse design.
This comes from being too busy looking at the reverse of coins and ignoring the obverse.
Anyway, I'll prepare an article and forward this to pra666 in the first place for consideration.
I'll get that done this week.
By the way in my post #10 I stated that the coin in Nobles April 98 lot 70 was the one in the ACR 1966 issue.
Well, that's rubbish, on further investigation and carful comparing the magazine coin is 2/ the black spot coin.
That's why you go over and over your work and question the truth of every statement in several ways!
By the time the article is ready there should be no stupid bloopers,
Fred.

[fred lever]

Hi All, one article detailing research work and some conclusions and forwarded to PRA666.
Fred.

[pra666]

By the way in my post #10 I stated that the coin in Nobles April 98 lot 70.......
This was the one Murray Pearce purchased on behalf of Stuart Andersen (who he worked for at the time) in about 1984. They had it authenticated by the Royal Mint.