5th Variety of 1931 Penny discovered

[fred lever]

Ecchy when you look at that obverse image it has the same look as a lot of my fake cast coins.
 Note the lack of definition in the king image and the metal faults such as the lumps and voids.
We are all assuming this is a copper coin but if the image is colour true the coin could be poured from low temp "muck metal" as used in 2/- forgerys.
Fred's images are always "shot soft" so you cannot quite see fine detail. Or, the coin is cast.
I doubt you will find a 1929 obverse with the same lumps, no mileage in casting 1929 dates.
If that coin in the image is ever subject to scientific analysis by a third party body, not me, not you, and found to be real, then we can all relax and bid for it.
Fred.

[Yurist]

Hello gentlemen, just a few points:

1. It is true that Fred Coote was the source of a few Unicorn Pennies.  However, he is certainly not the only source.  There are a number of others.  

2. For your information, Fred Coote was born in 1933.  Given that he is turning 88 this year, he can probably be excused for not posting perfect images online, and should instead be commended for being internet savvy, and using eBay in the first place.  In fact, I've had the opportunity to physically inspect some of Fred's Unicorn Pennies and have to tell you that they are nothing like the condition they appear in on the eBay images.  Unfortunately, Fred uses an old (low res) camera for his eBay ads, which is why they look so horrible.      

3. Initially, I also found it odd that Fred Coote had a few Unicorn Pennies in his possession.  So, I asked him to explain how that can be.  He responded with a rather interesting story...  Fred's sister, who was born in 1931, passed away a few years ago and Fred inherited her penny collection.  Their father, who was a milkman, collected pennies that were left under milk billy cans, and each 1931 penny that he found he gave to Fred's sister, and each 1933 penny he gave to Fred.   This went on for many years, until their father left to fight in the second world war.  Is it possible that a small batch of Unicorn Pennies found their way (one by one) from their original source to Fred's sister's collection?  If Fred's father was specifically picking 1931 pennies for many years in a given area (near their source), I don't think it's entirely implausible that a few of these pennies ended up in a single collection. 

4. Fred's sister obviously had a very substantial collection of 1931 pennies, which also explains why Fred is currently selling quite a number of the rare 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse pennies on eBay too.  

5. I have documented and checked Fred's story through different sources, and have no reason to suspect that it is untrue in any way.  In fact, I am convinced that it is absolutely true and that Fred's Unicorn Pennies have been in his family's possession since the early 1930's.  I, therefore, have no doubt over their authenticity.  


6. I think Jim Noble (who I understand personally met Fred Coote) also believes him.  You will appreciate that with such overwhelming provenance (tracking the coin back some 80+ years to a single collection), one can understand why Jim was inclined to authenticate it.  In any event, I am pretty sure that Jim Noble would have (at the very least) used a magnifying glass to check for any obvious signs of the coin being a fake.  Clearly, it is not.  

7. For further details into the origins of the Unicorn Penny, I invite you to visit my Further Research page on my website at: https://sites.google.com/view/1931dropped1indianpennyvariety/home/further-research 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news for all the doubters out there, but the evidence is now overwhelmingly in favour of the Unicorn Penny being a genuine 5th variety of the 1931 penny, and probably one of the rarest examples of an Australian pre-decimal coin variety.  

[Basil]

Hello gentlemen, just a few points:

3. Initially, I also found it odd that Fred Coote had a few Unicorn Pennies in his possession.  So, I asked him to explain how that can be.  He responded with a rather interesting story...  Fred's sister, who was born in 1931, passed away a few years ago and Fred inherited her penny collection.  Their father, who was a milkman, collected pennies that were left under milk billy cans, and each 1931 penny that he found he gave to Fred's sister, and each 1933 penny he gave to Fred.   This went on for many years, until their father left to fight in the second world war.  Is it possible that a small batch of Unicorn Pennies found their way (one by one) from their original source to Fred's sister's collection?  If Fred's father was specifically picking 1931 pennies for many years in a given area (near their source), I don't think it's entirely implausible that a few of these pennies ended up in a single collection. 

4. Fred's sister obviously had a very substantial collection of 1931 pennies, which also explains why Fred is currently selling quite a number of the rare 1931 dropped 1 Indian obverse pennies on eBay too.  

Hi Yuri,good to see you posting but my Neville Nobody opinion based on nearly 60 years of Pre.Dec. collecting, and also working for Coin Dealers back in my youth,there is a huge Red Flag with these Coins.The egs clearly show disturbances near the date area as Echi. has shown several times.
After saying that i'll leave it up to the experts to have a final say so time will tell.

Family Friend for over 60 years was a Sydney Coin/Stamp Dealer for over 30 years,in his 90's now he has seen all this before,unfortunately his eyesight is poor so i can't get his definte opinion on your Coins but he laughs at your anecdotal provenance,insert 1930 Penny being left out for the milk money and its a tired old cliche.

[serenitystan]

Hi, Just my two bobs worth..No One Numismatist can authenticate a coin. This must come from a unanimous group decision . As for Mr Jim Noble i suggest he should see a Mr F.J. Geddes-Optical . There just up the road at 6/187  Macquarie Street Sydney...They also bulk bill.

[echidna]

"It is true that Fred Coote was the source of a few Unicorn Pennies."   

How many exactly ?

I"nitially, I also found it odd that Fred Coote had a few Unicorn Pennies in his possession.  So, I asked him to explain how that can be.  He responded with a rather interesting story...  Fred's sister, who was born in 1931, passed away a few years ago and Fred inherited her penny collection.  Their father, who was a milkman, collected pennies that were left under milk billy cans, and each 1931 penny that he found he gave to Fred's sister, and each 1933 penny he gave to Fred.   This went on for many years, until their father left to fight in the second world war.  Is it possible that a small batch of Unicorn Pennies found their way (one by one) from their original source to Fred's sister's collection?  If Fred's father was specifically picking 1931 pennies for many years in a given area (near their source), I don't think it's entirely implausible that a few of these pennies ended up in a single collection. "

Rubbish, most  "Unicorn Pennies" show signs of heavy circulation. 
If it was 1931 to circa 1939 they would be much better grade.
His other 1931 dropped 1 Indian dies are all low grade too.

Yurist has conveniently forgotten that the JNAA no longer supports the "Unicorn" any longer.
Yurist has conveniently overlooked the Ebay feedback for Frederick3862.
Yurist has conveniently overlooked the fact that the note from Jim Noble simply says that Mr Coote's penny is a "Unicorn" which is correct. Doesn't say anything about the Unicorn being genuine.
Yurist still has not provided one proper high res image after all this time.

[nealeffendi]

Yes, echidna has hit upon the ? that hit me. It is certainly possible that the bag pennies containing the Unicorns were released into the district where the father was a milko and said father kept all that passed through his milk run. But that would result in a number of. Unicorns only circulating for a few years at most so they should be in great nick.
Now the REAL test is searching for the military record of the father of Fred Coote, because if his father didn't enlist then this whole story falls apart. So did any thirtysomething named Coote enlist in that district? Does the local cenotaph/memorial hall or whatever list the names of those from the district? Maybe the local RSL can help.
As it is I found the NAA lists the names of 92 men who enlisted in WW2 named Coote and assuming he was at least 20 in 1931 and enlisted in NSW then there are less than 30 possibles. Anybody know the name of either the father or mother of Fred Coote as the NAA enlistment records show both the recruits name and their next of kin.
One final test is to confirm if the sister was born in 1931. Anybody from that area see her obituary or knows somebody who knew her (for all we know the sister was born in some other year or even never existed and was invented to explain why the '31s were supposed to be collected).

[JeffH]

If someone wants to spend the time then some of that information might be found at Trove.

A lot of old newspaper records there -death notices, marriage reports, local events etc.- but it can be time consuming.
I easily found enlistment details and service record of a WWII veteran on a trench art coin I found. He did have his name and service number engraved on the coin which made it a breeze.

[nealeffendi]

Hi Jeff, without knowing the sisters Christian name or her name after marriage it would be hard to track her. BDM doesn't lists births less than 100 years ago nor deaths less than 30. As for which of the couple of dozen possibilities being the enlistment of the father it would be hard to pin down which one he is/isn't without more to go on.
Would anyone know exactly which North Coast town  to focus on for the Coote family? Is Fred Coote still in the town he was born because I'd hate to think that many hours will be wasted trawling through Trove looking for a needle.

[echidna]

Would anyone know exactly which North Coast town  to focus on for the Coote family? Is Fred Coote still in the town he was born because I'd hate to think that many hours will be wasted trawling through Trove looking for a needle.

Ebay listing says Bronte, NSW.

[Yurist]

Everyone, thank you for your feedback.  I will try to address the substantive points you made and hopefully cover most of them in this post.  

1. Basil, regarding your concerns over the disturbances near the date area, I suggest you review my website at https://sites.google.com/view/1931dropped1indianpennyvariety/home/further-research 

You will find information that should allay your concerns, and also some hi-res images of Unicorn Pennies (on the Gallery page) and high-power microscopic images of the date areas etc.
  
2. Echidna, your point regarding wear on the coins is a valid one.  Frankly, I don't know the correlation between wear and time on pennies under normal circulation conditions.  Have there been any studies done on this question?  If Fred's dad found one of the coins in say 1938, how much wear is ±7 years of circulation going to show?  I honestly don't know, but I also can't exclude the possibility of significant wear, particularly if the coins were experimental (which may have affected their original quality).  

Another relevant point is that in the 1930's communities were much more localised than they are today, resulting in the turnover of cash currency remaining within a given area for longer periods.  This was exacerbated by the economic pressures of the Great Depression, which substantially slowed national economic activity.  So, if the coins were released into a certain area in the 1930's it's not impossible that they continued circulating in that same area for many years.  

Finally, what I guess wasn't clear from my earlier post is that while Fred's dad started his daughter's 1931 penny collection, Fred sister continued to collect these specific date coins for some years thereafter.  So, it's not impossible that some of the Unicorn Pennies were added to the collection after the father left for WWII.  

So, while the observation regarding wear is a valid one, it can be explained when taking all of the above into consideration.  

3. Echidna, you wrote:

a) "Yurist has conveniently forgotten that the JNAA no longer supports the "Unicorn" any longer."  

Are you suggesting that the JNAA have withdrawn my article or have published a statement to that effect?  Funny, since nobody told me about it.  I also just checked the JNAA website and my article is still there:  http://www.numismatics.org.au/pdfjournal/Vol29/naa-journal-vol-29-rapoport.pdf  So, can I please ask you for the sake of maintaining some degree of civilised dialogue in this forum, that you refrain from spreading unsubstantiated rumours and making unfounded allegations.   It's not doing your credibility any favours.  

b) "Yurist has conveniently forgotten that Mr Coote is a known seller of fake altered date pennies - 1930s and 1931s."  

Again, more unsubstantiated allegations.  Instead of blindly repeating the same accusation, simply show us all where you get your information from.  I will gladly consider it and address it.  However, if you don't have the evidence, then you should consider refraining from making such serious accusations.  You're not only making yourself look like a cheap rumour monger, but you're actually defaming Mr Coote in a public forum.  I'm not your lawyer, but if I was, I would advise you to think carefully before making such statements.  

c) "Yurist has conveniently overlooked the fact that the note from Jim Noble simply says that Mr Coote's penny is a "Unicorn" which is correct. Doesn't say anything about the Unicorn being genuine."

Echidna, you're making yourself sound rather silly.  What you are actually implying is equivalent to Jim Noble inspecting a 1930 penny and saying "yep, that's a 1930 penny alright", without considering whether it was a genuine or a fake, but then issuing a certificate with his name attesting to it being a 1930 penny.  For your information, Jim Noble is an international authority on numismatics, a former president of the Numismatic Association of Australia, and a recipient of the ANS gold medal for his work in the field.  He is not an idiot!  If the coin he inspected was in any way suggestive of being a fake, he would have called it out.    

(d) "Yurist still has not provided one proper high res image after all this time."  

Not true again Echidna.  I have provided hi-res images on this forum and I have also provided a link to my website where there are ultra-hi res images including high-power (x1000) microscopic images.   

4. As for the research on Fred Coote's family history, I have to seek Fred's permission to publish the details in this forum.

[echidna]

These coins all show significant wear.
No way they were put away in the 30s or even the 40s.

[Yurist]

I noticed that you modified your post Echidna.  Originally, you posted that Fred Coote had one bad review on eBay, which you relied on as evidence to support your conclusion about him selling fakes.  Thank you for that.  You've just shown everyone that from a total of 716 reviews for Fred Coote, he received 715 amazingly positive reviews and only a single negative review from one UNREGISTERED user.   That hardly makes Fred a fraudster, now does it?  

There could be dozens of possible explanations why that single unregistered buyer was dissatisfied.  A misunderstanding of the ad could be one, or simply the buyer was an idiot who bought a 'complete' penny album for e.g. $100 and expected it to  contain a genuine 1930 penny.  God knows there are many idiots out there.  

What other nonsense evidence do you wish to offer?    

Good call for deleting your above post.  You know, there's an old saying... "Sometimes it's better to remain quiet and appear knowledgeable than say something and dispel any doubts."

[Yurist]

These coins all show significant wear.
No way they were put away in the 30s or even the 40s.

Are you an expert on coin wear?  Do you know of any studies conducted on this question?  Please enlighten us with your rationale.  How do you come to this conclusion?

[nealeffendi]

Would anyone know exactly which North Coast town  to focus on for the Coote family? Is Fred Coote still in the town he was born because I'd hate to think that many hours will be wasted trawling through Trove looking for a needle.

Ebay listing says Bronte, NSW.

Hi Echidna, Bronte is an expensive beachside suburb in Sydney (Eastern suburbs, just South of Bondi). A few hundred miles from the North Coast so clearly not the home town.

[Basil]

These coins all show significant wear.
No way they were put away in the 30s or even the 40s.

Are you an expert on coin wear?  Do you know of any studies conducted on this question?  Please enlighten us with your rationale.  How do you come to this conclusion?

Yuri,blind Freddy can tell these Coins are heavily circulated,i admire your passion with this Coin but regulary in your Posts you show a naivety as far as pre-Dec. Coins go.
I don't think you had much of a collector/researcher background in Oz. pre-Dec before you jumped on this bandwagon,i still don't understand your motives & over the top passion,it can't be money as if these are sold as genuine & PCGS or the like consider them altered dates the sellers will be in court.