shilling grade

[serenitystan]

The die is a piece of very hard metal engraved with the design of the obverse and reverse. Cracks are due to extensive use of the die. A planchet is the blank metal disc before its made into a flan which is a blank metal unstamped coin shaped disc. Somewhere through the minting process the planchet or the flan are damaged before the die strikes. So a planchet flaw or a flan flaw happen when the coin was minted not after. Years ago PCGS would not mark slabs with flan of planchet flaw but now they do. Hope this helps.

[trout]

So what's the difference between a diecrack and a plancet flaw , for those of us that aren't familiar with them. Pics would help as well, thanks.

A planchet flaw is where the metal becomes "Laminated" during the rolling process and it is on the coin before it is even struck.
A die crack is where the die used to strike the coin develops a stress crack and imparts a raised line on a coin as well as the design, Usually between devices.

[nealeffendi]

ATTENTION! This shilling that PCGS slabbed is a counterfeit. I  am certain of this as I have 2 similarly choice examples and they have the same ding line below LL and the fine scratch line coming up from the top point of the star. More importantly my 2 examples have 2 different dies used for the obverse. One of these obverses has a fault at the rim at IN and that exact same die was also used for 1911, 1916 and 1925. The other fake 1914 that I have has a diecrack through IND IMP (so the fakers used the same 1914 reverse paired with at least 3 obverse die. I have identified 7 fake shillings in my collection, plus a 1923 threepence. All made by the transfer die method. Special thanks to Echidna for raising this issue (in CCF) in regards to similarly faked 1911 pennies.
The obverse of your shilling matches 2 of my shillings (dated 1911 and 1916). There is a tiny dot just in front of the kings nose and another near the kings chin (a bit below and forward).
So NGC has slabbed fake 1911 pennies and PCGS has slabbed fake 1914 shillings. I've lost nearly 2 thousand on these 8 raw coins but how much more could I have lost had I purchased them slabbed?

[ausproofs]

What ? Mate that's really bad ! This coin looks very good for a fake if it is a fake ... on the flip, how much money are these guys making selling fakes ? Any examples would be good (pics please)... Thanks Neal.

[Basil]

This one looks suss.,1917 Shilling,Kangaroo looks to have a bow on its head.

Edit..Thanks Nancy,fixed date,Echinda is usually correct but the malformed 'M' was a marker for a fake Silver a few years back IIRC,but then why would you worry about 1917 when there are far more juicy targets around.  

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1917-Australian-Shilling-UNC/332442752497?hash=item4d6721d5f1:g:I80AAOSwPzhaA7Hj

[echidna]

This one looks OK to me.
All of the fakes I've seen have an extra high outer rim.

[Nevol]

This one looks suss.,2017 Shilling,Kangaroo looks to have a bow on its head.

:blush: Sorry to nitpick, make it 1917. :winkextra:

Good that it appears to be OK. I know the seller, from having personal coin dealings, and I'm sure he would not offer any suss coins for sale. :good:

[Cockatoo Coins]

I'm not convinced on the die transfer fakes announcements on all the forums just yet, can you post your evidence on a new single post for us to review with pics please?

[nealeffendi]

I'm not convinced on the die transfer fakes announcements on all the forums just yet, can you post your evidence on a new single post for us to review with pics please?

Have you checked out CCF? Echidna has a thread, plus there are several other threads (including one where a poster called CoinOS shows his 1911 shilling and another in an upcoming Heritage auction with matching repeating depressions which characterize die transfer fakes (in a PCGS slab :shock: ).I suck at photography. Fred will be taking photos for a CAB article on transfer dies (which won't be out for a few months).

[Cockatoo Coins]

I have although wasn't 100% convinced with the evidence just yet, i know similar claims were made with regards to US coins a few years ago and those made it through TPG's and were found to be from transfer dies but have asked the PCGS counterfeit guys to have a look at the arguments made on here and CCF to see what their opinions are. They have a world more experience on these things than we do so hopefully come back with something I can share with you.

[Cockatoo Coins]

I am currently out of the country grading Chinese coins in Asia. Fakes are now quite common in many parts of the world, and rampant in China. As far as counterfeit Australian coins go, there are fakes going around but they are not all that deceptive to the trained person. The only forum we have seen to date (CCF), states that NGC has graded a few of these counterfeits- not PCGS. I have read the thread but I cannot confirm this thread statement at this time, but we are quite able to distinguish these fakes. The reason we do not disclose how to tell the fakes from the genuine coins, is that counterfeiters read the forums and correct the die markers that we have discovered. NGC is making a huge mistake in disclosing this information to the public, and they are doing it for cheap publicity purposes. The PCGS guarantee is unmatched in the industry and your fellow collectors and investors should feel safe buying PCGS coins. I have been studying counterfeits for PCGS for 29 years, and PCGS is the leading expert in counterfeit detection. We maintain an impressive library of counterfeit photos that is unmatched by any third party grading service, are available to every PCGS grader.
Best regards, Mike Sargent

[nealeffendi]

OK, so if Mike Sargent states that they are "quite able" to distinguish the fakes then why is there a fake in a PCGS slab in the upcoming Heritage auction?

[Cockatoo Coins]

As mike has stated in subsequent emails, they do not wish for coins that are questioned being in circulation. That's why they have the guarantee in place and would be more than happy to inspect any suspect coins and if found to be counterfeit add them to their registry of fake coins. Working with them on any concerns is the best outcome we can hope for, at least then we can keep those in Pcgs slabs in high confidence.

[Mister T]

The reason we do not disclose how to tell the fakes from the genuine coins, is that counterfeiters read the forums and correct the die markers that we have discovered.

That's all good and fine but who guards the guards?
I don't think it's wise to blindly trust PCGS.

[Cockatoo Coins]

Pcgs at least will put their money where their mouth is so if they do get it wrong at least you will have some recourse. There will always be astute Collector's who will keep them in check aswell such as they have done here.