1934-35 Centenary Florin Proof Type 2 ?

trout · August 11, 2016, 02:02:19 PM

Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='94173' dateline='1470881430'as far as I know the early 'proofs' were the first specimen strikes off the new dies
so the term proof has a lot of numismatic academic discourse

Hmmmm
Pretty much like calling all the Canberra Florin 3 steppers "Proofs" ay ??

Mister T · August 11, 2016, 07:06:24 PM

Quote from: 'Cockatoo Coins' pid='94188' dateline='1470889688'This is true, I never trust them completely. I'll see if I can dig up the article I found a while back where someone who worked with the program was asked specifically about the varieties.
I must admit I got excited when I first found modern articles on these and looking in my collection to find an example was amazing, the more I researched though the more I found the information on them was sourced from single modern sources not historical. PCGS no doubt when they reviewed the coins status earlier this year wasn't convinced either.

There was an article in a 2009 Coin and Banknote magazine about it I think and the source a draft letter from the mint master (I think).

trout · August 11, 2016, 07:14:09 PM

I am thinking that much of the information we have concerning the Pre decimal issues has a fair bit of Myth and legend mixed up in it due to the secrecy that still to this day surrounds this mystical place we call The Royal Australian Mint :angel:

nealeffendi · August 11, 2016, 08:40:25 PM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='94236' dateline='1470908649'I am thinking that much of the information we have concerning the Pre decimal issues has a fair bit of Myth and legend mixed up in it due to the secrecy that still to this day surrounds this mystical place we call The Royal Australian Mint :angel:

Canberra didn't strike the pre decimals. but according to Mullett Canberra did get a number of records from Melbourne (Mullett stated that he looked at the Die Record books before they went to Canberra). Based on that I contacted Canberra a while back and they replied that they had no records. So what happened to them?
As for actual specimen coins I do know that the museum in Victoria got a bunch back in the 1970s, only problem is the written info that came with them in at least a few cases was either non existent or was destroyed by the museum and new (false) information attached. That is what I found for the 1946 florins when I inquired about their specimens so it might also apply to any/all the hundreds of specimen coins they have.

trout · August 11, 2016, 09:04:29 PM

I think that the "Intrigue" that surrounds many of our pre decimal coins is one of the things that make them Soooo interesting.
It is so hard to get hard cold facts, So numismatists have to try and deduct what has occurred using reasoning and whatever truths they can garner using whatever means available to them.
The trouble is that different numismatists have differing opinions as a result of their studies of various coins.
Even recently with the incused millennium 50c Nothing is written in stone and everything we consider as fact regarding this particular coin is in reality just conjecture and based on a probable scenario using educated guess work with the scant information that has been available from RAM.

Nothing Booring about this Hobby Guys :yahoo:

Cockatoo Coins · August 11, 2016, 09:18:51 PM

So true trout

r9453 · August 12, 2016, 05:18:24 AM

Quote from: 'trout' pid='94247' dateline='1470915269'It is so hard to get hard cold facts, So numismatists have to try and deduct what has occurred using reasoning and whatever truths they can garner using whatever means available to them.

I'm not convinced there is a lack of factual information but it can be difficult to access it. I have read on Wikipedia, "This article needs citation". I often think exactly the same thing with pre-dec numismatic stuff I read online.

Mister T · August 13, 2016, 07:45:21 AM

Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='94246' dateline='1470913825'Canberra didn't strike the pre decimals. but according to Mullett Canberra did get a number of records from Melbourne (Mullett stated that he looked at the Die Record books before they went to Canberra). Based on that I contacted Canberra a while back and they replied that they had no records. So what happened to them?

Surely Mullett was consulting the records when he wrote his stuff in the 1990s? Possibly they were transferred to somewhere that can better look after them

nealeffendi · August 13, 2016, 01:32:17 PM

Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='94407' dateline='1471040121'
Quote from: 'nealeffendi' pid='94246' dateline='1470913825'Canberra didn't strike the pre decimals. but according to Mullett Canberra did get a number of records from Melbourne (Mullett stated that he looked at the Die Record books before they went to Canberra). Based on that I contacted Canberra a while back and they replied that they had no records. So what happened to them?

Surely Mullett was consulting the records when he wrote his stuff in the 1990s? Possibly they were transferred to somewhere that can better look after them

Mullett wrote that they went to Canberra, so assuming that he is correct then either Canberra has them and is being untruthful or Canberra sent them elsewhere and they couldn't tell me where. I think Mullett wrote his notes it back in the 1970s after Melbourne closed. The Melbourne specimen coins went to Melbourne museum. I've looked online at various archives but cannot locate them. My biggest fear is that Henderson and his partner Gee took them back in the 70s.

Mister T · August 13, 2016, 09:02:55 PM

Hm, it seems like the research was done in the 1970s, but why wait 15+ years before publishing multiple books and articles?
I think one of his books says the records were on permanent loan to the mint from the Victorian Public Records Office - possibly that's where they were returned to?
I was going to suggest that maybe David Gee stole them but I'm not sure what he would stand to gain from doing that.

nealeffendi · August 14, 2016, 02:27:07 AM

Quote from: 'Mister T' pid='94498' dateline='1471087975'Hm, it seems like the research was done in the 1970s, but why wait 15+ years before publishing multiple books and articles?
I think one of his books says the records were on permanent loan to the mint from the Victorian Public Records Office - possibly that's where they were returned to?
I was going to suggest that maybe David Gee stole them but I'm not sure what he would stand to gain from doing that.

I have been online with the Public Records Office Victoria and cannot find the die account record books. As Mullett read them then they must exist.
As for Henderson and Gee.... the opportunity to create new die pairs becomes possible unless the records show it is impossible (in theory Henderson had access to Geo V and Geo VI dies as the Indian mints may have returned them in the mid 1960s when Canberra demanded the return of the dies, then Gee could have done his magic and struck mules from die pairs that the account books would prove did not exist simultaneously in Melbourne).

Mister T · August 14, 2016, 08:13:41 PM

Possibly yes. Possibly ask the mint if they admit to ever having the records?
Other than that, who has since written something and referred to the records? Maybe John Sharples knows where they are.
And does the VPRO still think they're on permanent loan to the mint?

robbiegal · August 14, 2016, 09:55:01 PM

send me a pm with the specifics but clear and simple (for moi) Neal
and I might know someone who I can ask

nealeffendi · August 15, 2016, 03:54:48 AM

Quote from: 'robbiegal' pid='94584' dateline='1471177501'send me a pm with the specifics but clear and simple (for moi) Neal
and I might know someone who I can ask

Will do in a couple of days (at work ATM)

robbiegal · August 15, 2016, 08:23:17 AM

no probs