Satoshi Nakamoto is an Aussie!

[Fulvio]

Would it become rather large and unwieldy, is it published online somewhere?

Yes, that's right. That's kind of the whole point. EVERY node must have a complete copy of the blockchain in order to work. The blocks are transferred between nodes using a peer-to-peer protocol, making it immune to tampering by any central authority.

Because it IS so large (Dogecoin is around 17Gb now, and Bitcoin is 86Gb or so.. check https://bitinfocharts.com/ for stats), many people use 'lite' clients, despite their limitations. These clients only download needed blocks, not the entire chain, and they don't participate as peers in the network.

I've been arguing for two years now that this is our achilles heel. When I started, the Dogecoin chain was 4Gb, and even that was problematic for my limited bandwidth. While I still have a full client for now (the next mandatory update will almost certainly see me orphaned, even the current release required the devs to build a special version for me), I've stopped using it, preferring to use 'paper' wallets which exist only as keys, not as a piece of software.

The credit card networks each handle around 2,000 transactions per second baseload, and have been stress-tested to over 56,000. The current crypto networks can't handle that load. Bitcoin has a ten minute block time. Dogecoin has one minute blocks, and both currently use 1Mb blocks (there's a huge and divisive debate over in BTC-land about block sizes). You can fit about six transactions into 1k, so that's a theoretical 6,000 transactions per minute for Doge, which although ten times more than Bitcoin, is nowhere near Visa's 120,000. You can check our actual transaction graph here: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactions-doge.html

Note that most of the traffic isn't on the real blockchain anyway, but on private ledgers run by exchanges, Dogetipbot and the like. These private chains keep traffic off the network and help enormously in terms of speed, responsiveness and cost reduction. Its only necessary to hit the blockchain (and pay miners fees) when moving funds in or out of these private services.

Anyway, I don't think it can possibly scale if we ever got mass adoption. Of course, we could make changes, prune the tree and the like, but even so, its a problem.

IBM also think along the same lines. That's why their IoT blockchain will work differently, discarding data as it ages. After all, how long do you need to keep records of when you turned your lights on, right?

[r9453]

Thanks for the explanation, it was very thorough as usual. I looked at the statistics site, that was informative.

So, if there mass adoption the size of the chain could rise to terabytes or even petabytes?

What is a node?

Does the entire chain transmit across the p2p network or is it like a backup where only the part that has changed needs to be updated?

[Fulvio]

So, if there mass adoption the size of the chain could rise to terabytes or even petabytes?

Yes.

What is a node?

The software which comprises the network, distributes blocks and submits transactions. In the case of Dogecoin, the dogecoind daemon, QT/Core wallet client and the like. Standard implementations of the wallet client are only partial nodes, as they have at most 8 peer connections. This can be opened up to make them full nodes, but the bandwidth can get a tad excessive.

Does the entire chain transmit across the p2p network or is it like a backup where only the part that has changed needs to be updated?

Every block must be on every node for the system to work. If a node comprises a wallet, then the entire blockchain must be present. However if it is a full node with no wallet, then it can discard blocks to conserve resources. Every new block must be disseminated to every full or partial node, and this is done via p2p. However, one can start with a bootstrap file, which is a snapshot at a given time, then catch up the missing blocks. Once created, blocks cannot ever change.

Also, in addition to the blockchain, a node also has a list of every UTXO outstanding, which is maintained in RAM. These Unspent Transaction Outputs contain the coins, and every coin must live in one. It is critical for network health to reduce these UTXOs to a minimum, by having fewer outputs than inputs to a transaction. Another thing I've been harping on about for years.

[r9453]

I'm close if not beyond the limit of my understanding now but I'm happy with the concept since most of my transactions are already electronic.

So is a node the same as a node in a p2p network? I've used BT for years so I have a basic understanding of how that works.

I'm assuming if you own bitcoins you must have a wallet (I'm using bitcoin as an example, I realise there are multiple types).

[Fulvio]

So is a node the same as a node in a p2p network?

Pretty much.

I'm assuming if you own bitcoins you must have a wallet (I'm using bitcoin as an example, I realise there are multiple types).

Yup. But it doesn't have to be a piece of software.

See, wallets are simply 256-bit numbers. With a couple of ID and checksum bytes added of course. And Base-58 encoded to make them less unwieldy.

http://dogedirectory.azurewebsites.net/ shows you a bunch of keys, and the derived public keys to go with them.

No need to go into the hows, but suffice to say that the private key is factored to produce a public address (well, several actually, but no matter). Consider this:

Two prime numbers multiplied together produce a number divisible only by itself, 1, and the two numbers which produced it. So 3x5=15, and 15 can be divided only by 1, 3, 5 and 15. This is the underlying principle behind public-key cryptography, though of course the numbers are massively bigger, and would take billions of years to brute-force. But generating them is trivial, and deriving the public key is also trivial.

There are wallet generators which run in web browsers. I have one on my page at http://fulvio55.altervista.org which does about 90 currencies. The output from these generators can be physical, printed paper wallets, like these:

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=dogecoin+paper+wallet&num=100&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilvOmS5qnNAhVYfVIKHWrqDu4Q_AUICCgB

or it can just be lists of keys. You can generate as many of these as you want. After all, as you saw from that database, there are 904625697166532776746648320380374280100293470930272690489102837043110636675 PAGES of keys to choose from!

Any wallet address can receive coins, assuming its valid of course. There is a checksum to catch transcription errors. And there are websites which allow "sweeping" wallets, such as http://dogechain.info and http://redeempaper.com, as well as web-based services which allow importing of wallets. Note that third-party services are inherently risky, as you give up control of your coins to someone who may not be honest, or who may be compromised by external players.

I actually have the bulk of my coins in "paper" wallets. I manage the keys basically through text files (well hidden of course), and I use HTML pages like this example: http://fulvio55.altervista.org/test/sample.html to keep track of them all. Note that the three V8SuperDoge wallets on that sample page are real. They were used to raise funds for the sponsorship of Jack LeBrocq's car at Bathurst.

[r9453]

Thanks again Fulvio for taking the time. OK, I think we covered nodes. Now, wallets, I lost you at "Base-58 encoded" which I did not understand.

I keep getting distracted by gravitational waves from colliding black holes and 1920 pennies which are both equally hard to follow.

I knew there was a connection between prime numbers and cryptography but that's as far as it goes.

Let's say I wanted to transfer some money from my PayPal account to BitCoin, where would I start?

[Fulvio]

I lost you at "Base-58 encoded" which I did not understand.

OK, you know how our standard-issue numbers are base-10? And binary numbers are base-2? Well, you can work in any base you like. Base-16 is hexadecimal, Base-8 is octal. And Base-64 is a standard encoding for turning binary data into ASCII so it can be transmitted as text. You see this in your emails as MIME blocks, which comprise a-z, A-Z, 0-9 and two special characters. To quote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base64,

A quote from Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan (be aware of spaces between lines):

Man is distinguished, not only by his reason, but by this singular passion from
other animals, which is a lust of the mind, that by a perseverance of delight
in the continued and indefatigable generation of knowledge, exceeds the short
vehemence of any carnal pleasure.

is represented as a byte sequence of 8-bit-padded ASCII characters encoded in MIME's Base64 scheme as follows:

TWFuIGlzIGRpc3Rpbmd1aXNoZWQsIG5vdCBvbmx5IGJ5IGhpcyByZWFzb24sIGJ1dCBieSB0aGlz
IHNpbmd1bGFyIHBhc3Npb24gZnJvbSBvdGhlciBhbmltYWxzLCB3aGljaCBpcyBhIGx1c3Qgb2Yg
dGhlIG1pbmQsIHRoYXQgYnkgYSBwZXJzZXZlcmFuY2Ugb2YgZGVsaWdodCBpbiB0aGUgY29udGlu
dWVkIGFuZCBpbmRlZmF0aWdhYmxlIGdlbmVyYXRpb24gb2Yga25vd2xlZGdlLCBleGNlZWRzIHRo
ZSBzaG9ydCB2ZWhlbWVuY2Ugb2YgYW55IGNhcm5hbCBwbGVhc3VyZS4=


The problem with using this encoding for wallets is that there are characters which are easily confused. Again to quote the Base58 wiki:

Compared to Base64, the following similar-looking letters are omitted: 0 (zero), O (capital o), I (capital i) and l (lower case L) as well as the non-alphanumeric characters + (plus) and / (slash). In contrast to Base64, the digits of the encoding don't line up well with byte boundaries of the original data. For this reason, the method is well-suited to encode large integers, but not designed to encode longer portions of binary data.

So the alphabet used for crypto addresses is 123456789ABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijkmnopqrstuvwxyz

Let's say I wanted to transfer some money from my PayPal account to BitCoin, where would I start?

You start with a wallet. Which can be a client such as Core/QT, or a light client, or a web service such as block.io, or a paper wallet you generate yourself, or a wallet from an exchange or other middleman. The easiest way to get started is with Dogecoin's tipbot on Reddit. Just register on Reddit, go to the Dogecoin subreddit at http://reddit.com/r/dogecoin and say hi. In all likelihood, people will tip you, provided you don't look like a scammer. This will give you an account with /u/dogetipbot, and a wallet to go with it, as well as a few coins to start you off. Mention me, /u/Fulvio55 so I see it (or comment on any of my numerous posts/comments and introduce yourself) and I'll throw a few coins your way.

To get substantial quantities of coins, you need an exchange, which will also give you wallets for whatever currencies you trade. If you've looked at my page, you would have seen the referrals down near the bottom. https://www.coinspot.com.au/?affiliate=flv is CoinSpot, which is here in Berwick and run by a guy I know. You can deposit and withdraw cash (though thanks to the banks and their BS policies, the process is now a little convoluted) and use it to buy from the market. You will also want accounts at http://www.btc38.com/trade_en.html?mk_type=btc&btc38_trade_coin_name=doge which is a large Chinese exchange where you can trade BTC or CNY pairs for a limited selection of coins, and https://poloniex.com/ where you can trade just about anything.

Once you have an exchange(s) account(s), you need to get some currency into it(/them) and start trading. It works like any other market. People place bids and offers, and other people buy or sell to/from those people, with the exchange taking a tiny cut. You can deposit/withdraw cryptos to/from any wallet, but fiat currencies depend on exchange and local government rules, with the US exchanges being the toughest due to their KYC/AML laws.

You can also use a variety of middlemen such as shapeshift.io to instantly swap currencies, including via Paypal, but their fees are pretty horrendous IMO.

Oh, you will see lots of people discussing mining, which is how new coins are created. Ignore them. That ship sailed years ago, and it is next to impossible now to make enough to cover electricity costs. I run a batch of Gridseeds:



which I've modded to cut power requirements to an absolute minimum, and they earn me about a third of a cent a day each worth of Litecoin, which I then sell/swap on the exchanges. If it wasn't for the fact the machines are long since paid for and the power free (saves on heating costs), I wouldn't bother.

And of course, you can always get coins by selling stuff or working for them. Everything from pizzas to computers and even coins can be bought/sold for cryptos. There have even been cars and houses sold this way.

[r9453]

Thanks again Fulvio. I'm bogged down with 1957 pennies this morning. The idea of a base 58 (rather than base 64) surprised me but if its to do with ascii chars and then I can dig it.

OK, I will start with a wallet.

"The easiest way to get started is with Dogecoin's tipbot on Reddit. Just register on Reddit, go to the Dogecoin subreddit at http://reddit.com/r/dogecoin and say hi."

I did that. Ack! Its in Russian.
"To get substantial quantities of coins, you need an exchange, which will also give you wallets for whatever currencies you trade."

I'm not sure I want to trade. First I want to learn how it works but I'd also like to actually use it for transactions like making donations etc.
"Once you have an exchange(s) account(s), you need to get some currency into it(/them) and start trading."

So, to transfer from my PayPal account I will need to do that.

EDIT: Maybe we should continue this in another forum?

https://redd.it/4ofdmw

[Fulvio]

I did that. Ack! Its in Russian.

Huh? Well, go to https://www.reddit.com/prefs/ and set the language.

First I want to learn how it works but I'd also like to actually use it for transactions like making donations etc.

Go to the info menu at the top of /r/dogecoin, just below the header, and read the 'Wallet ELI5' (Explain Like I'm 5).

So, to transfer from my PayPal account I will need to do that.

If you don't want much, you can give me some cash and I'll buy you some. I've got a fair pile in my CoinSpot account.

Maybe we should continue this in another forum?

https://redd.it/4ofdmw

Just tossed you a small tip there to get you started. You should also look in /r/dogetipbot, and http://dogetipbot.com (log in with Reddit) to link your accounts.

The reason I've kept this thread going is I know there are a couple of other guys interested, so it was as much for their benefit as yours.

[JeffH]

Looking in and learning.

[r9453]

The Russian thing went away. I got two free gifts, now I need a wallet to put them in?

I found the info menu at the top of /r/dogecoin, and I'm reading the 'Wallet ELI5' (Explain Like I'm 5). I'm tempted to post it here since its not too long.

I got your tip and one other from someone who said they knew you. Next I will visit http://dogetipbot.com to link my accounts.

I don't want to invest a lot to begin with maybe say $200 but I would like to try it myself rather than send you $200 and get you to do it for me.
:yahoo: I made it to https://dogetipbot.com/dashboard and found the peoplma (D16.00) and fulvio55 (D98.00). So now I have D114.00. :yahoo:
For anyone watching at home D114.00 = approx. 2 US cents.

[Fulvio]

The Russian thing went away. I got two free gifts, now I need a wallet to put them in?

You already have a wallet. The tipbot creates it for you as soon as you accept a tip, and its tied to your account. You can see the address if you send it a +history command, or on the website, along with all your transactions.

You can tip 3 ways:

• In a comment, to the person whose comment or post you're replying to.
• To a specific user, using @, as in @Fulvio55
• To an external Doge wallet, Dxxxxxxxx. This is just like a withdrawal, only public.

I got your tip and one other from someone who said they knew you.

Yeah, /u/peoplma is one of the mods on /r/Dogecoin. BTW, /u/42points who is also a mod is over in Bendigo. He's the guy who did most of the custom CSS for the page.

maybe say $200

That's rather a lot in the current market. I fully expect prices to fall after the Bitcoin halving, since that's what happened with Dogecoin and Litecoin. The current prices are all speculation I think, which is why I'm selling now to buy back later. I would think five bucks would be more than enough to play with, since there's no limit on trades. To give you an idea, I'm trading 10,000 doge parcels on BTC38, whereas I used to do 100,000 lots on Cryptsy before they imploded.

For anyone watching at home D114.00 = approx. 2 US cents.

Yup. Which is what makes it fun. You can play to your hearts content and it won't bankrupt you.

BTW, the minimum tip is 4 Doge, so go ahead and spread it around a little. See if you can ignite a tipwar... they're great fun.
Oh, I forgot to mention that BTC38 pays interest on Doge. Its pretty tiny, but I get like 10 a day, for basically nothing. Also, on Poloniex you can use your coins for short term margin lending, a day or two for maybe 5%.

[r9453]

I can see now that I have looked at dogetipbot that I already have a wallet. I will try $5 as per your suggestion although I notice that at least one of the online donations I want to make only take BTC so I might eventually get me some of those but for now I will keep going with Doge.

So my next step is to buy say D25,000.00 from somewhere?

[Fulvio]

only take BTC so I might eventually get me some

And this is where the exchanges come in. Trade one for the other.

So my next step is to buy say D25,000.00 from somewhere?

CoinSpot is probably the go. Use the referral link I gave you earlier, and deposit some cash. Then you can buy Doge, BTC or whatever.

The reason you also want the other exchanges is that CS no longer do BTC pairs, only AUD.

[r9453]

I've opened an account with CoinSpot. I have not transferred any money yet. Now I want to see my dogetipbot wallet and add to it.
"We strongly advise you turn on 2FA to further protect your account."

Seems like a good idea - I don't mind giving them my mobile number but do they really need my drivers license?

Do I need a wallet for each currency? So, if I want to have Doge and BTC and transfer between them, I need two wallets
Enticing isn't it? Come frolic with me! Where is that, Fulvio's beach house on Port Phillip bay?