RE: $1 Mule rarity/scarcity questions

[trout]

From my understanding a "Variety" is a coin with a deliberate design change and not a Mistake or  damaged die product.
For example all the various mintmarked dollar coins and the counter stamped  coins are a variety .
Even the incused Millennium is a deliberate design change.
So strictly speaking the Mule is an error, even though there are thousands of them along with many other mass produced errors.
I cannot see why there is a problem calling a spade a spade, it makes no difference whatsoever.

[Fulvio]

From my understanding a "Variety" is a coin with a deliberate design change and not a Mistake

Well, no, intent has nothing to do with it. If you put salt in my coffee instead of sugar (yes, I've done this) it makes no difference if it was a mistake or you were being a smartarse.

A mistake leading to a variety is no different from a deliberate decision. Except maybe the quantities involved are smaller and therefore more desirable, especially if the mistake is discovered and corrected.

[trout]

From my understanding a "Variety" is a coin with a deliberate design change and not a Mistake

Well, no, intent has nothing to do with it. If you put salt in my coffee instead of sugar (yes, I've done this) it makes no difference if it was a mistake or you were being a smartarse.

A mistake leading to a variety is no different from a deliberate decision. Except maybe the quantities involved are smaller and therefore more desirable, especially if the mistake is discovered and corrected.

Now I am confused.
The mintmark and counterstamp coins are and were deliberately designed and minted to create a variety within that issue, these are definitely variety's.
Coins created by mistake By the very nature of their creation they would have to be errors.
Error is a similar word to mistake .
Just because a mistake is made several times it is still a mistake/error
I think Feathers has the right idea and simply call this a "Mule" and make it a category of its own with all the other Mules created worldwide :ok:

[Fulvio]

Error is a similar word to mistake .

Therein lies the problem. They sound interchangeable, but they're not.

Lets take an example we can all agree on...

The incused flag is a variety. No doubt, right?

Now, suppose for a moment that reverse was intended for a different coin. I dunno, say a special release by the Real Millennium Society or whatever. The dies are made and stored for the upcoming production run of specimen coins, which will have the correct 2001 date for the real beginning of the millennium. Then some guy makes a mistake and sticks one in a press and produces Incused Flag Mule 50¢.

Because of the similarity of the design, quite a lot are shipped before anyone realises. So to cover it up, the specimen 2001's are never produced as originally intended.

A Mistake was made.
A potential Mule was created. (Just like in 2005)
A Variety was released.
No Error resulted from this mistake.

See my point now?

I have no problem simply calling a mule a mule. I do have a problem calling it a mule error though, because its not.

[trout]

I do have a problem calling it a mule error though, because its not.

Nor is a strictly a variety.
It is fact a MULE simple as that  

[nealeffendi]

I do have a problem calling it a mule error though, because its not.

Nor is a strictly a variety.
It is fact a MULE simple as that  

A mule is never as simple as that.
Nobody can really agree on what counts as a mule. Are the 55-56 penny mules really mules? Those dies were not intended to go together (at the planning stage) but they were also used by the staff as they were indifferent to the plan as they were perfectly usable dies.
And if the 55-56 coins are called mules by most people then why not the '27 Indian or other die pair varieties (like the '77 CofA 50 cents)?

[trout]

And if the 55-56 coins are called mules by most people then why not the '27 Indian or other die pair varieties (like the '77 CofA 50 cents)?

:agreed:
Why not indeed :good:

[Fulvio]

Why not indeed :good:

Perhaps because there is more than a little marketing PR involved? Made worse, I would argue, by the reluctance of the mint to fess up.. or at least hold proper records.

[trout]

Why not indeed :good:

Perhaps because there is more than a little marketing PR involved? Made worse, I would argue, by the reluctance of the mint to fess up.. or at least hold proper records.

I would think that if the wrong dies were used to mint a coin then it would be a Mule regardless of what the Mint or the PR people have to say about it :ok:

[JeffH]

Two penny dies but, not intended to go together; two $1.00 dies but never planned to go together. Ended up  being used together. Mule or not? And, if the mint officials decide to continue striking after the "error" is noticed does that make a difference?
I think we have had this discussion in depth before and are now starting to go around in circles!

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that arguing semantics is not going to achieve anything once a particular error/variety/fault etc. has been commonly called by a particular name or description. Once the name has stuck; that's what it is regardless of what anyone thinks it should be called. That is a common characteristic of the English language -useage decides meaning and any number of dictionaries make not a whit of difference.

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
    "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Through The Looking Glass; Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll)

[Unicorn]

Very philosophical and a great example Jeff!!!

I was going to go down the tomato, potato path, but really got sidetracked when I found out there is a TOMTATO!!!! (true).

I think the forum designers have had it sown up by having a single section for "Errors and Varieties".

[Fordprefect]

I think we have had this discussion in depth before and are now starting to go around in circles!

I'll have to think about that, not procrastinate mind you. :angel:

[JeffH]

Plenty of Round tuits for sale on eBay. You must check them out one day!

[nealeffendi]

that's what it is regardless of what anyone thinks it should be called. That is a common characteristic of the English language -useage decides meaning and any number of dictionaries make not a whit of difference.

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
    "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Through The Looking Glass; Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll)

Twisting the English language sounds double plus good to me:dodgy:

[trout]

This thread  IS purely a discussion about  semantics regarding the 2000 Mule coin and it's designation as a error/variety.
It is what it is. :ok:
It is also a rather good "Red herring" to keep the discussion about as to why this coin is marketed and sold at an inflated value when it is NOT a rare coin but scarce one.
From what I can ascertain there are 6,000 to 8,000 of these out there, I tend to go with 6,000 because Feathers is NO idiot.
What I cannot understand is why a bashed and brutalised one of these still commands a price of $400 or upwards . :angel: