Grading $1 coins

[Guest1595]

Guest, there's a website run by a collector with images of PCGS-graded mules in the various grades:
http://www.dollarmule.com.au/id2.html

(The link from AJ is also good, tohugh.)

If you'd like your mules graded, send me a message and we can talk.

Eric

Hi Eric, thanks for the info.... Whilst i am not looking to get my mule coin formally graded or slabbed, i am keen to learn how the circulated decimal $1 coin is graded with respect to wear. I believe Walter has some really good info on his website or on ebay; i forget which, whereby he teaches people how Australian sovereigns and half sovereigns of each era wear with respect to high points and provide images with those areas highlighted... I found that really useful !

sorry but I don't know how to make it blow up to a decent size

Use the gallery... its the easiest way. You can then post inline images with the img tag, which will display at full size.

Lovely coin, and the pics aren't bad either.

Now, as to grades and investments... oh my, where to start?

For the most part, we're coin collectors here, not money collectors. Yes, grading affects demand and competition and drives up prices... hence the $12k mule vs the $750. But does it really matter what that cheaper coin grades at? Clearly its not MS, and that's pretty much the end of the story, really. A single grade may make a huge difference at the top end of town, but the majority of these things are well circulated, and grade isn't the major factor.

And even if we're talking about an MS coin, what we grade it at is irrelevant anyway, since people are buying the slab and not the coin. Much has been written about slabbing, so I won't rehash it here. Suffice to say slabbing has little to do with coin collecting, and much to do with money collecting.

Fulvio, thanks for the gallery tip...will try and add it in there later and repost those coins at proper size for easier viewing in this thread...

As for your question  "does it really matter what that cheaper coin grades at? "  and assertion that " the majority of these things are well circulated, and grade isn't the major factor."

In my opinion, yes it matters what the non mint state (Below Unc) $1 mule coins grade at.. It matters to me and i think many other buyers as well, and even sellers. I believe that grading was designed as a means of communication amongst fellow coin collectors, so that even before looking at a particular coin, they would roughly know what to expect to find... As an example, with the George V copper series, it's commonly accepted that a VF coin should show on the obv side, the King's crown with pretty much intact upper and lower bands, a clear and complete diamond plus 6 pearls...anything slightly less and it's often graded aVF and if traces if the 7th and 8th pearl is there, its gVF...   These traits/ landmarks are often used on George V Australian predecimal coppers as they are some of the highest points which wears first.

Hence, by having a rough idea of high spots and their level of wear, one can often come up with a grade. Knowing how to grade coupled with images of the coin, will provide the buyer with sufficient info in their decision making of how much they are willing to offer for that coin and whether they think they are getting it for a fair price or not.   Too often sellers overgrade, or dont know how to grade and just put any willy nilly grading on their coin, and i believe by helping others on here, myself included, we can all make better and informed buying decisions.

For sellers and those looking to sell, by knowing how to grade, they too can convey the state of wear of their mules more accurately and coupled with photos when selling, would be able to avoid misunderstandings with potential buyers. A win-win for all I'd say...

This has been the intention of my post from the beginning and i'm hoping we could establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.

[ausjack]

Hi, not sure if anyone has posted a thread on this before, as I can't find it using the search option, but can anyone shed light on the high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.

An image of the obverse and reverse side of an Unc $1 with some coloured highlights to demonstrate those areas would be great, if anyone is kind enough to post. If we could also consider making it a sticky post for others to use as a reference tool, that will also be much appreciated.

Cheers..

:scratch_one-s_head: so how did this become about mules when the question was about $1 coin..something funny going on here :dodgy:

[emu666]

Hi, not sure if anyone has posted a thread on this before, as I can't find it using the search option, but can anyone shed light on the high points on the Australian $1 coin which wears first.

An image of the obverse and reverse side of an Unc $1 with some coloured highlights to demonstrate those areas would be great, if anyone is kind enough to post. If we could also consider making it a sticky post for others to use as a reference tool, that will also be much appreciated.

Cheers..

:scratch_one-s_head: so how did this become about mules when the question was about $1 coin..something funny going on here :dodgy:

It always was.

That was why Mr Guest raised the topic.


And what do you mean by something dodgy?
Please explain yourself

[Ozcoins]

Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?

[Guest1595]

Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?

Yes, it applies to both.... Some people had a dig at me earlier when i asked about grading $1 MoR, as circulated samples are not worth much and those who collect them all choose Unc and above samples for their collection... For now, the only situation where it would be of use would be for the $1 mules, unless another major error is made by the mint with respect to MoR $1 coins.. (Fingers crossed)... :-)

[Fulvio]

establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.

I'm not arguing that knowing what to look for is a bad thing. Its not. For all denominations, not just the $1. Knowledge is always good.

What I'm arguing is that it isn't really important for decimals vs predecimals. According to PCGS, there are 400 mules. I don't believe them, as we've pretty much deduced there's an order of magnitude more than that. But its still a tiny population. In which it very much comes down to the individual coin, not whether its half a grade more or less worn. Except for the slabbed ones of course. For which its PCGS's opinion that counts, not ours.

Grading is far more important for predecimals, where the populations are far higher. Not a lot of early coins got hoarded in UNC, so its more important to split hairs over coins that spent 40 years jingling around in pockets. That's not the case for most decimals, where high grades are easy to come by, making it a pretty pointless excercise, at least for now.

Even for the mules, its equally pointless. As a collector, any mule is desirable. As an investor, its all about value, and that means slabbing. So grading becomes a matter of "is this coin good enough to spend the slabbing fees on?". For which the answer is certainly "yes" if you found it and want to sell it. So the only people left to care must be those who bought or are looking to buy a raw coin, with a view to slabbing and reselling. A minute subset of both collectors and mule owners, I reckon.

Anyway, I'm clearly at odds with everyone else, so I'll shut up now. :angel:

[emu666]

Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?

Yes but there is a small difference. The obverse of a mule will wear slower than the obverse of a normal dollar coin as the design is protected a little more by the higher outer rim.

[Guest1595]

establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.

I'm not arguing that knowing what to look for is a bad thing. Its not. For all denominations, not just the $1. Knowledge is always good.

What I'm arguing is that it isn't really important for decimals vs predecimals. According to PCGS, there are 400 mules. I don't believe them, as we've pretty much deduced there's an order of magnitude more than that. But its still a tiny population. In which it very much comes down to the individual coin, not whether its half a grade more or less worn. Except for the slabbed ones of course. For which its PCGS's opinion that counts, not ours.

Grading is far more important for predecimals, where the populations are far higher. Not a lot of early coins got hoarded in UNC, so its more important to split hairs over coins that spent 40 years jingling around in pockets. That's not the case for most decimals, where high grades are easy to come by, making it a pretty pointless excercise, at least for now.

Even for the mules, its equally pointless. As a collector, any mule is desirable. As an investor, its all about value, and that means slabbing. So grading becomes a matter of "is this coin good enough to spend the slabbing fees on?". For which the answer is certainly "yes" if you found it and want to sell it. So the only people left to care must be those who bought or are looking to buy a raw coin, with a view to slabbing and reselling. A minute subset of both collectors and mule owners, I reckon.

Anyway, I'm clearly at odds with everyone else, so I'll shut up now. :angel:

Hi Fulvio, thanks for your inputs.... it's always good to have other people's perspective so no need to stay quiet.  I see where you are coming from, but at the same time I still don't believe that just because decimal coins are hoarded, and Unc samples are easier to come by, that grading has no place for those types of coins.  Whilst it is true for the common type decimal coins where people could hoard huge amounts in Unc, the example I have used, being the $1 mule, I don't believe people could hoard them in Unc grades... If I had to guess, I don't think there would be more than 10 samples in true Unc or above grades.

And the fact that the first $1 mule was not discovered 2-3 years since it left the mint, the majority of them would have seen circulation and a fair few enjoyed the slippery dip rides within poker machines over in W.A.  That may not be as long the the 40yrs or so that some of the predecimal coins endured in circulation, but it's enough that a variety of grades exist for the $1 mules ( with the bulk being in the gVF/aEF or below grades) .... hence why I think it's good to know how to grade them..

Practical examples of where it would be useful would be if a collector wanted to add one to his/her collection but have been unlucky in finding one ( as many would have been plucked from circulation by active $1 mule hunters since 2003). The only way then would be to buy it off places like ebay, dealers or auction houses. And if they were to bid on a "raw" example, knowing how to grade would help a buyer make better informed decisions.

There are also those who may already have a $1 mule in their collection and wanting to upgrade to a higher specimen... If they didn't know how to grade, how would they know they were truly getting the grade they paid for, especially if unslabbed.  As a side note, not all investment grade and high end coins are slabbed, as you will see if you attend the major coin auctions...

Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?

Yes but there is a small difference. The obverse of a mule will wear slower than the obverse of a normal dollar coin as the design is protected a little more by the higher outer rim.

Hi Emu, I didn't know about that.....thanks for sharing..

[Fulvio]

If they didn't know how to grade, how would they know they were truly getting the grade they paid for

Making this a much broader topic than $1 mules, no?

Improving grading skills is a desirable objective, and one we should all be striving for. No argument there. But the best way to get there? Big piles of predecimals, without any shadow of a doubt. Once learned, the skills are fully transferrable to anything struck in a press anywhere, anytime.

[emu666]

establish where the high spots are on both the Obv and Rev sides for the Australian $1 coin, so as to be able to grade circulated samples ( not as important for common dated/types i agree, but of particular importance with respect to the $1 mule). And i believe the best way would be via images of the coin with an overlay/ highlight of the susceptible highpoints/areas.

I'm not arguing that knowing what to look for is a bad thing. Its not. For all denominations, not just the $1. Knowledge is always good.

What I'm arguing is that it isn't really important for decimals vs predecimals. According to PCGS, there are 400 mules. I don't believe them, as we've pretty much deduced there's an order of magnitude more than that. But its still a tiny population. In which it very much comes down to the individual coin, not whether its half a grade more or less worn. Except for the slabbed ones of course. For which its PCGS's opinion that counts, not ours.

Grading is far more important for predecimals, where the populations are far higher. Not a lot of early coins got hoarded in UNC, so its more important to split hairs over coins that spent 40 years jingling around in pockets. That's not the case for most decimals, where high grades are easy to come by, making it a pretty pointless excercise, at least for now.

Even for the mules, its equally pointless. As a collector, any mule is desirable. As an investor, its all about value, and that means slabbing. So grading becomes a matter of "is this coin good enough to spend the slabbing fees on?". For which the answer is certainly "yes" if you found it and want to sell it. So the only people left to care must be those who bought or are looking to buy a raw coin, with a view to slabbing and reselling. A minute subset of both collectors and mule owners, I reckon.

Anyway, I'm clearly at odds with everyone else, so I'll shut up now. :angel:

Hi Fulvio, thanks for your inputs.... it's always good to have other people's perspective so no need to stay quiet.  I see where you are coming from, but at the same time I still don't believe that just because decimal coins are hoarded, and Unc samples are easier to come by, that grading has no place for those types of coins.  Whilst it is true for the common type decimal coins where people could hoard huge amounts in Unc, the example I have used, being the $1 mule, I don't believe people could hoard them in Unc grades... If I had to guess, I don't think there would be more than 10 samples in true Unc or above grades.

And the fact that the first $1 mule was not discovered 2-3 years since it left the mint, the majority of them would have seen circulation and a fair few enjoyed the slippery dip rides within poker machines over in W.A.  That may not be as long the the 40yrs or so that some of the predecimal coins endured in circulation, but it's enough that a variety of grades exist for the $1 mules ( with the bulk being in the gVF/aEF or below grades) .... hence why I think it's good to know how to grade them..

Practical examples of where it would be useful would be if a collector wanted to add one to his/her collection but have been unlucky in finding one ( as many would have been plucked from circulation by active $1 mule hunters since 2003). The only way then would be to buy it off places like ebay, dealers or auction houses. And if they were to bid on a "raw" example, knowing how to grade would help a buyer make better informed decisions.

There are also those who may already have a $1 mule in their collection and wanting to upgrade to a higher specimen... If they didn't know how to grade, how would they know they were truly getting the grade they paid for, especially if unslabbed.  As a side note, not all investment grade and high end coins are slabbed, as you will see if you attend the major coin auctions...

Is there really any difference between 'wear/grading' on a mule vs MoR?
I would expect that the same wear and grading would apply to both?

Yes but there is a small difference. The obverse of a mule will wear slower than the obverse of a normal dollar coin as the design is protected a little more by the higher outer rim.

Hi Emu, I didn't know about that.....thanks for sharing..

My pleasure.

[robbiegal]

ausjack wrote : "like I said post some pic's and I'm sure the team will help if they can"


Okay I'll bite...here's a few shot of one that's in my stable.... first image to show the underlying luster and the other two for details...




sorry but I don't know how to make it blow up to a decent size so anyone who can, please feel free to re-post my shots ( Edit: Have managed to figure it out with Fulvio's help...cheers mate !)... Also apologies for the poor images...just took it with my iphone5 with incandescent lighting ...daylight would be alot sharper...

great pics
thanks for giving it a go
and ps - that coin looks like a nice higher grade $1 MOR's to me

[Guest1595]

Okay, after much deliberation, I have decided to sacrifice a perfectly good Choice Unc 2013 MoR $1, in the name of science to test out how and where the wear occurs....

This experiment was done using 240 grit sandpaper and short 7-8cm strokes on a flat surface with light to medium pressure with my hand.

Below was the good looking specimen before mutilation....Liz may not be happy with the end results, but all for a good cause in helping us numismatists gain knowledge and insight (hopefully)....






Now for the mutilation...  stage 1 after 10 rubs shows light wear which starts at the angle of mandible (lower jaw) muscle insertion area.




Rubbing for another 5 strokes brings us to stage 2, where we can see wear to not only the angle of mandible but also to the cheekbone and cheek muscle area. ( Sorry about the poor out of focus shot but sunset was creeping in and I had to hurry to finish off the experiment..)




By the time that I got to the 20th stroke, we get to stage 3 of wear and it looks similar to that of stage 2 but more pronounced.




I then decided to give it a good rub and doubled the amount of strokes to 40 and we get really noticeable wear which extends to from her cheekbone to include the temple area. Other worn areas  include the eyebrow, tip of nose, a tad of lower lip and lower chin, plus earlobe involvement, and light scuffing to parts of her curls. We now also see faint traces of involvement to her neck muscles.






The Reverse side was also done... here are the before shots...






I found the reverse a lot more resilient to wear as after 40 rubs, it got to this only :-



Here, we see only the slightest hint of wear to the last (5th) kangaroo in the pack right at the top.  The faintest smudge appears on it's upper mid torso.

I then needed to do a further 40 more strokes of sanding ( 80 in total by now ) to get anywhere near this (which I have named stage 2) :



By stage 2, we can see wear which extends to include the thigh muscle of the 5th roo, thigh to 4th roo; the face, midback and left arm of the 3rd roo. There is also wear to the tip of tail of the 2nd roo plus very slight marks to it's hip area.  

I conclude from this that the Reverse side either has very low relief for the roos or the rims are quite high ( I suspect more likely the former)....

So there you have it folks.... the way a MoR $1 coin wears... And it's the obverse that is a lot more susceptible to wear than the reverse side, I think also mentioned by others earlier on...

Hope this helps newbies in the future with their grading of the $1 mule....

[Fulvio]

Hope this helps newbies in the future with their grading of the $1 mule....

Excellent work on all counts (pity about the light/focus)! And condolences to the coin's family... it gave its life for science, and should be nominated for an Order of the Lab Rat medal. :dodgy:

[robbiegal]

wonder if carbon paper could produce similar results?
but like what the dentist does when looking for wear

shopping behaviours have  changed a lot but I thought too,  that coins were also worn by being slid across shop counters and bars at hotels when change was returned to the customer

good to see the file wear there Guest - an interesting exercise (good thing it wasn't a 2000 $1 mule or there would be plenty of tears in the forum today!! ha ha

[Unicorn]

Ten points for effort and pics there Guest.

I'm pretty sure that most of the circulation wear would result from contact with other coins (of all sizes). Considering the shape of same I don't think wear would be as evenly distributed as your test suggests as the amount of flat coin on flat coin circulation wear would likely be just a part of it. Curved / angled edge to flat coin surely has a large impact.

Just a thought.