coin storage cost

[serial]

The hard part will be picking a coin. I don't usually post up so many pics but its been fun and I love how I can upload such hi res pics

[stevo1962]

Yes send your coins to Eric at Drake Sterling as I do.He'll
look after you

[serial]

I will contact him and send a couple to test the water. Honestly I have hundreds of ms coins but just havent get comfortable sending stuff again after what happened last time. But its time to move on anger some stuff graded. Which one do you think I should start with?

[Fulvio]

so who else here spends more on coin storage than raw coins.

Ah, you've hit one of my pet peeves! I'm constantly bemused by both the people who spend fortunes on storage and those who take advantage of them.

Basically, its all about environment. Presentation is very much a secondary consideration, because only a tiny percentage of our collections are ever viewed anyway. I see no problem with going all-out on presentation for those special items... Goldy's clockface at the mint leaps immediately to mind... I can't even begin to imagine the cost of building that display panel! But whether its a museum or a beginner's stash, the vast majority of our coins are stored in bulk, and cost is a major factor.

Consider your NCLT. Every single coin is wrapped up in layer upon layer of plastic, cardboard and whatnot, but I'll bet 99% of them are seldom if ever viewed. Only yesterday I witnessed some two-coin sets being broken apart, and I would say that in their 12-year life, they were only viewed two or three times. With the coins gone, all that packaging is now totally redundant.

If we are to focus on environment rather than presentation, or even snob value ("I only ever use Danish Lightbulb Premium Super-Deluxe Albums for all my coins!" :dodgy:), then it comes down to materials, not brands or form. And materials affect our collections in two ways. Their ability to protect contents from external environmental factors, and their interaction with the contents.

Taking interaction first, there have been a number of poor choices over the years, most notably early sets in PVC wallets! Plastics, papers, timbers and metals can all interact with coins (and banknotes) to damage or destroy them.

Paper - Though now almost entirely consigned to the scrapheap, paper was once produced with a chlorine bleaching process. This chlorine would subsequently leach from the paper over the years, forming acid which would destroy paper and metal it came into contact with. Almost all currently produced papers are safe however, and have been for some years now. Being labelled "Acid-Free" just raises the price... they're all acid-free anyway.

Plastic - Plasticity is a state, between liquid and solid. What we call plastics are polymers produced from hydrocarbons which start life as crude oil. Hydrocarbons contain carbon and hydrogen, and polymers are generally long-chain molecules containing these two atoms. The problems arise from reactive elements added to produce specific qualities in the end product. These elements, such as Chlorine and Sulphur, react readily and form acids. Not good to have near your collection!

Wood - Wood is mostly cellulose, which is a sugar polymer. There is a reaction going on in it producing acetic acid which is highly volatile, and will attack substances it is not in contact with, especially with poor ventilation. That's why wooden cases tone coins.

Metal - Galvanic corrosion occurs between dissimilar metals in the presence of an electrolyte, as long as there is an conductive path between them. That electrolyte doesn't have to be battery acid. Even minute amounts of moisture in the atmosphere will do nicely over a long enough period of time.

So, what does all this mean for coin storage?

Basically, you want to use a non-reactive material to encapsulate your coins and exclude air and the many contaminants it contains. The easiest material to use is a plastic. And with the notable exception of PVC, most plastics are safe. All commercial storage products are made from one or another of a small number of materials:

Polyethylene - Low-Density (LDPE - Type 4) or High-Density (HDPE - Type 2) polyethylene is probably the most common packaging material in current use. It is safe for coin storage.

Polypropylene - While polypropylene (PP - Type 5) is most common as a solid used for everything from plastic toys and furniture to bottle tops, it is also produced as a clear film used to make storage pages. Note that PP breaks down with exposure to UV, which is why your deck chairs crumble. Don't leave coin albums in the sun!

Polyethylene Terephthalate - While hard to pronounce, (PET - Type 1) this stuff is also all around you. From the PET soft drink bottles to the BoPET (Biaxially-orientated PET, commonly known by the brand name Mylar) in your 2x2's and chip packets, you've got some near you right now.

Polyvinyl Chloride - The bad boy of the coin world, (PVC - Type 3) PVC owes its bad habits to the presence of Chlorine atoms in its molecules, and to the plasticisers which are added to soften and clarify it from its natural, hard white brittle form. PVC leaches these chemicals, forming acids which gobble up your treasures! Polyvinylidene Chloride (PVDC) commonly called Saran, also contains Chlorine, and is most used as a coating on other plastics used in food packaging, and used to be the basis for cling-wrap films (which are now polyethylene).

Poly(methyl methacrylate) - Lumped in as an "other" (PMMA - Type 7), PMMA is the Acrylic that PCGS slabs are made out of. Perspex, Plexiglas and other names all refer to the same stuff.

With the exception of PVC, most plastics are safe to use, and those that aren't generally have coatings or additives which degrade under certain conditions. The best known example is Bisphenol-A (BPA) leaching from polycarbonates. Not a big deal with CD's and DVD's, but kinda stressful for bottle-feeding mums!

So, where does this leave us as collectors, you may ask?

Ripped-off, for the most part. The market is full of ignorant and blatantly crooked manufacturers and traders. People still make coin storage pages out of PVC, even though they know the damage they do. Because its cheap, and therefore highly profitable. Dealers still sell them. Many because they just don't know, some because they don't care as long as they make a buck.

Collectors too are to blame. Ignorance is bliss, or so they say, and its easier to swear by brand XYZ than it is to learn what XYZ is made of, and massive markups are a result of that ignorance.

Plastics are produced in truly massive quantities for daily uses which must be exceedingly cheap. You can't wrap a potato chip in a $10 bag, because nobody will buy it. But you can wrap a coin in the same bag, which actually cost a tenth of a cent, and charge $10 for it. Because, you know, it has a cool name and maybe a hologram!

So do yourself (and your wallet) a favour, and do some research. Learn what things are made from, and buy appropriately. And invest in tools rather than materials. If the only difference between a sheet of plastic and a product on a dealer's shelf is the heat sealer used to make it, buy the sealer and make your own! This applies especially to the practice of sealing Saflips... sorry, but that's just plain dumb. Take a clever product that costs a premium because of its form, and then destroy that form, reverting it to something you could just as easily have made from the original material at a fraction of the cost... DOH!

Knowledge is power. Get to know the stuff you throw away every day, and you'd be surprised how much of it is perfectly suited to reuse as safe storage. Or continue to throw it away, then buy identical materials that cost a fortune. Your choice. :dodgy:

[trout]

Some good points there Fulvio :good:
I must be doing something wrong tho because ALL my coins are placed in saflips/2x2's then stored in the appropriate albums, With the exception of a few kg's of pre decimal and decimal copper that are in icecream containers.

ALL my decimal coins are a minimum grade of ch Unc/MS64 , My pre decimals are not that flash But they all form parts of my collection.
I like to be able to view my coins on a regular basis and being stashed away in bulk packages is just not for me.
For me if I couldn't access any given coin without having to open various packages would defeat the purpose of collecting in the first place.
My $1 collection alone has cost me a few K so far so what's a couple of hundred bucks to make them presentable and ensure that they suffer NO damage
We all have different ways of storing our coins and presenting them.
As long as the coins don't get damaged then all methods are good.
Each to their own.

[Ozcoins]

Excellent post Fulvio!
Lots of good info and ideas for people to think about.
The more you know about what you want to achieve and how it can be done, the better off you are.
I am not sure about the "rip off" comments though.  For a commercial venture there are many products that would still need to be sold at a relatively substantial cost even of the product had zero cost to the retailer. Rent, insurance, wages, maintenance, stock storage, shipping, taxes, etc etc etc all contribute to costs which a retailer needs to cover. If an item is specialised and specially developed then those costs need to be covered too.
Trout, I don't think Fulvio was implying that you are dong anything the wrong way. You are clearly happy with your methods and that is all anyone could want.  
I read Fulvio's post more as "If you are not happy with how you are doing things, here are some things to consider"

[JeffH]

I wonder if Fulvios great summary is the basis of a Wiki article?

[serial]

Nice write up. I actually have a lot of coins that I store in mylar by heat sealing then nice and snug so that 1 2x2 1/2 mylar can be made to store up to 4 coins in a sealed environment. I then store these in takeaway containers. I also have files that I use to store 2x2 that I intend to sell in the next 20 years. I have seen in the past the effect that storing 2x2s in PVC rich sleeves can have and how PVC can infect a sealed 2x2 over time so I only use mylar inert storage sheets now.
I would love to use cheaper household materials for this but what happens if in 20 years I open a container and find a whole box of coins ruined because I tried to save $10. It would devestate me and fincially isn't worth the risk of losing a heap of valuable coin

[Fulvio]

I read Fulvio's post more as "If you are not happy with how you are doing things, here are some things to consider"

Correct.

As for the ripoff comments, I made them based on my personal experience as a consumer, retailer and wholesaler of storage products, and I stand by them.

Certainly there are costs involved in commerce. That's a given. And there is the necessity for profit. Take that away and few would bother to get out of bed in the morning, let alone market anything. And making an honest profit doesn't make someone a thief.

No, what makes them thieves is manipulating products and prices to make extra, excessive profits from specific customers. When product A sells for say one dollar, but by putting it in a different package, or calling it a different name, or selling it at a different time or place a vendor is able to get ten dollars for it, that's theft. And it happens all the time. Whether its a bottle of water selling for four bucks because of a captive audience, or a piece of plastic selling for double the price because its sold to a coin collector instead of a photographer, its a ripoff, and those doing the robbing should be ashamed of themselves.

Here's an excercise for you. Go to the chemist and price a bottle of Acetone. It will be around $10-12 for 100ml, depending on how greedy the chemist is. Now go to a hardware store and price it. Bunnings charge around $10 a litre, depending on pack size, with a 4l can being about $38. Now look up bulk prices. You will find spot prices are around $1 a litre. Now, in my book, a 1,000% markup is marginally justifiable, as it does include transport, taxes, packaging, etc etc etc, in much the same way that petrol goes from 6¢ a litre to $1.50 or so at the pump. But a 10,000% markup? Based on what, exactly? The cost of the chemist's university education perhaps? Or the typewritten label on the bottle? Get real.

I wonder if Fulvios great summary is the basis of a Wiki article?

I think I've made my attitude towards wiki's clear previously. By all means, feel free to use anything I write without restriction. But don't expect me to do it.

what happens if in 20 years I open a container and find a whole box of coins ruined because I tried to save $10.

Valid point, which highlights the necessity for acquiring the knowledge to avoid this situation. I still meet people regularly who neither know nor care about the damage PVC is doing to their coins, and ignorance is not bliss, IMO.

That said, neither the price you paid nor the name on the label is going to affect the outcome one bit. What will affect it is chemistry. If you seal a coin in an acrylic case, whether that case has a PCGS label or an NGC label or no label at all makes zero difference to its longevity. And for that matter, whether its an acrylic case or a polypropylene or polyethylene pouch or bag also makes zero difference.

And finally... Trout... ah, dear Troutski. :angel:

Mate, let me give you an example of where I'm coming from, and how I got there.

I've just acquired some coins from a forum member. Which I've just started to examine. I'm now the proud owner of 114 1954 Coronation Florins. They're not MS-anything. They never will be. All are worn. Some already have cancer. Most are dirty, and may or may not clean up.

They're worth four bucks each as scrap. A few might be worth two or three times that, but for the most part, its the metal, not the coin, that holds the value. External factors like who's shooting at whom where, or what the chinese, greek or outer mongolian economy is doing will affect their value far more than whether they're in a self-adhesive or stapled 2x2, saflip or bank bag.

If I want to preserve these coins, I need to prevent air and moisture from coming into contact with them. Clearly its too late, but say for a moment its not, just for argument's sake...

Can you explain to me how spending $25 on saflips is in any way better than sealing these coins in bank bags which we get for free? Even with the acetone and labour to remove the printing, I think its a no-brainer. Even lacking a heat sealer and instead covering the holes with sticky tape, its still a no-brainer. And jamming 40 coins into each bag to form rolls, as I've done for now, even that is preferrable to having them loose in an old biscuit tin (or hat, sock or whatever :dodgy:) for that matter, isn't it?

Wasn't it you who was on the anti-packyboxyitis bandwagon not that long ago? What's changed, mate? Somebody from PCGS slip you the blue pill or something?

[trout]

They're worth four bucks each as scrap. A few might be worth two or three times that, but for the most part, its the metal, not the coin, that holds the value. External factors like who's shooting at whom where, or what the chinese, greek or outer mongolian economy is doing will affect their value far more than whether they're in a self-adhesive or stapled 2x2, saflip or bank bag.

These I would simply chuck in my silver scrap bucket along with the polished and otherwise ruined silver coins.
They are silver bullion scrap so a bit of tarnish is of NO consequence whatsoever.

Wasn't it you who was on the anti-packyboxyitis bandwagon not that long ago? What's changed, mate? Somebody from PCGS slip you the blue pill or something?

Nothing has changed, I still remove my coins from the Mint packaging especially the PVC crap they still insist on using with the PNC coins.
I HAVE been busy sending coins to get graded/slabbed but that is a two way thing.
1. It ensures that when I fall off the perch my missus will get full value for my coins and wont get ripped off by some shonky coin dealer.
2. I have been buying coins and getting them slabbed purely as a way to reap the rewards of selecting the better coins and making a few quid out of them.
Nothing different from all the noodlers out there going through the banks coins and selling them.
I am simply making a few quid using the hard earned and sometimes expensive knowledge it have garnered over the years.

12 months ago I was a hard core anti slabber and hated the bloody things.

I now not only see and understand why getting coins graded and slabbed is a bloody good idea, I am now learning how to do this and select the coin type and grade required .

My grading skills have become far more advanced by doing this as well.

Getting back to the subject;
My coin collection is just that a "collection" and I WILL spend a few quid on the best available products to ensure my coins integrity and ease of access also display properties.

That's just Me , if I really wanted to save money I wouldn't buy coins in the first place.
 
At the end of the day it is a personal choice about what you want to achieve out of a collection and what you are willing to pay to achieve that goal .

I would NOT enjoy looking at my coins in "Home Made" flips or reused plastic baggies and I CHOOSE to try and get the best supplies for the job.

Like I said , Each to their Own :ok:

[Fulvio]

At the end of the day it is a personal choice

You left out one word... "informed".

There is a world of difference between an informed choice, arrived at after considering and discarding other options for the one which best suits your style, and simply going by what you are told, usually by someone trying to make a quid off you.

Fortunately, neither you nor I, or indeed most forum members are in that latter category. But its a big majority of the population, I would argue. And I think one of the best things about a forum like this is it can help people gain the knowledge and experience to transition to making their own informed choices.

[ausjack]

I hate how ALL my collecting costs me a bucket in storage but if you want to get better money for them in the future you HAVE to protect them or pay the price in getting less for them when it's time to sell..I have changed 3 bloody times with my coins so now waiting for a new system that will cost me a motza..other than that I'm staying out of this one sorry..each to there own, just make sure it's not PVC

[Ozcoins]

AJ,
I would have thought that Fulvio's post would be perfect for you to work out a lower cost storage system.
I have a bunch of low value (but nicer than average circulated condition) circulated coins and I need to
A. Do a bit of a cull
B. Decide on a proper storage method
The few that are actually worth anything are in 2x2s (or temporarily in separate labelled envelopes or zip lock bags) so they do not get accidentally spent.

[markn]

Fulvio's ideas are good enough for someone who has bulk coins and doesn't care to look at them.  If you've got higher grade coins and want to put them in a holder and actually look at them (as opposed to looking at PE bags and rubber bands) then you're going to need real storage accessories.  And you're going to need to pay for it.  While the initial cost might seem high it's amazing how long they can last.  I bought 200 PE album pages more than 5 years ago (at about $275 or so) and I still haven't used them all. And I am still using the same half dozen PP folders with slip covers I've had for years.

And I'll completely disagree with him with regards to heat sealing SAFLIPs.  I do not care to have my coins in heat sealed PE bags in album pages because it looks crap.

With regards to the cost of our accessories, I can assure the profit margin is slim at best.  And we'd be much better off (from a business point of view)  getting out of the accessory business and concentrating 100% on coins.  But proper coin storage is a passion for PPH and she wants as much good storage out there as possible because she feels like she's doing her bit for the hobby.  But I swear with the amount of time she spends packaging it all up and mailing it out and how long the stock takes to turn-over she'd be better off doing something else.

[ausjack]

Like Mark says Oz it's ok for bulk but when you like to look at them it's a bit hard. Yes I hear ya Mark but thank god for PP as it's a great sevice to the hobby just sorry it doesn't turn over quicker or as much profit but then not everything has to be about profit as you'd still collect even if you didn't make any money wouldn't you because I know I would because I like doing it even though it does peave me off sometimes, but yeah I agree :winkextra: