what happened to the rules

[robbiegal]

coopers
I think it's fine having teenager collectors as members in the forum

the clear concerns that are expressed are around having a person who has stated their age - giving out personal contact information

there is absolutely no question of good character on any of the friendly and well meaning forum members but for some folk, like myself, I feel a strong sense of protection and responsibility towards you - maybe it's the mum in me

I think it's fine to kick around and share interest of the hobby
it's what the forum is about

I didn't give out my address to other members here - which is a post office box address, for quite some time - my natural cautious self I suppose

with respect to the buying selling rules, well that is another matter and other members here have more info about all that

I don't think either of you should leave the forum
 
And I commend AJ for his show of integrity even if it has made him  feel/be vulnerable - the words may not have come out exactly as he intended but the true meaning has - and that is about ensuring that all members in this forum are put to as little personal risk as possible and even more so for our junior members

that is all that is about

[Fulvio]

Hmmmmmm... there's a big problem with rules, and fears, whether based on reality or not.

Let me give an example, but I'm going to have to be somewhat obtuse to protect people I'm afraid.

I was president of a club which ran social events. Lots of families, and lots of kids. There has never been a problem over the decades. Then one fine day a wannabee-doogooder went off on a tangent and started rocking the boat. I never found out who or why. But regardless, as the head honcho, I found myself arguing with officialdom at many levels. Child Welfare "experts" (who all actually appeared to be busybody women, oddly enough) were called in to advise. Of course they saw nothing but stranger danger, every man is a paedophile, and no child is safe anywhere near any male who isn't a relative. And never mind that most abuse comes from family members. The officials started putting conditions in place, which got progressively more restrictive, and the club was forced to ban anyone under 18 just to be able to operate at all. The families then disappeared of course, since we no longer catered for them. The young adults no longer had anyone nearer their own ages around, and also vanished. Membership declined 90%. Now there's nobody left but a few die hards, and it will likely fold soon I suspect, through lack of interest or depleted funds.

See, in trying to protect people from a non-existent potential problem, these fools simply destroyed something good, leaving no winners. The kids lost. The parents lost. The other members lost. The agencies providing services lost. Their employees lost. And of course the club lost, bigtime. And why? Because some old biddy thought something MIGHT happen, in a secure, controlled environment, with parents, staff, doctors and even members of the police force in attendance.

This sort of thing is happening all over, at every level. Whether its entire nations becoming paranoid about terrorists, or councils shutting down beaches because some fool jumped into shallow water and broke his neck, or just about everything being shut down because of insurance, the insanity is out of control. Its like the fun police are on overtime, trying to stamp out anything and everything.

ALL of us were 14 once, remember? I dunno about the rest of you lot, but an awful lot of what *I* got up to would be totally verboten nowadays. Parental supervision? What's that? Mum and dad were busy with the shop, and us kids were out and about all day, every day, from walking to school in the morning, to showing up for dinner at night. And this was in the inner city, not some farm in the outback. Don't tell me its a more dangerous world today. That's crap. The only thing that's REALLY different today is that everybody seems scared spitless about potential dangers lurking around every corner. And I think that's not only a bad thing, but will turn around and bite us down the track. What kind of future adults are we trying to produce, anyway?

As for Connor, rest assured I intend having a chat to his dad before I send anything. Not because I have any suspicion at all about his bona fides, but just to get his take on everything.

Again, think about why the rules were put in place. We'd had some very unsavoury characters getting up to all sorts of shenanigans in the past, and wanted this incarnation of the forum to not suffer the same problems. I may have missed whatever naughty words got this thread going, but I haven't seen anything untoward said or done by Connor or anybody else, regardless of his post count.

More rules is NOT the answer to a non-existent problem.
Jeez, gotta hate it when you hit post and find another five hundred posts added while you were typing.

[markn]

There's three issues at play here.  The first, the swearing has been dealt with and will continue to be dealt with wherever the mods happen to see it.

The second, is a mash up of the trading rules and the fact that we may have a minor on these boards.  Let me deal with the trading rules first.  They are rules that everyone agreed to at the time and they will continue to be enforced.  Some people may not like it or want exceptions but the rules are there and they will be enforced.  And no more discussion will be entered into regarding that point.  

The final issue is that of minors on this board.  I am fairly certain there's at least one other minor (other than Cooper S) on this board already and they've got along fine so I'd hope that the rest of you could be trusted to act appropriately.  I'll have a talk to PPH about possible actions we can take moving forward but  I can tell you there's not a lot we can do.  About the the only action we could take is enforcing is an age limit on registrations (like Facebook do) and a bunch of ass covering legalese.  But of course people can just lie about their age and get in anyway.  And as Fulvio wrote above there's no point trying to create a nanny state on this forum, it would just ruin things.

All that being said if we see any hint of inappropriate behaviour towards minors on this forum then action will be taken immediately.

[trout]

We encourage Kids in Fishing Clubs, We encourage kids in sporting Clubs and in SO many other ways in our daily lives.
I cannot for the life of me see what is wrong with encouraging our young collectors the same way as we do in any other hobby, sport, or  occupation.
Because in reality these young collectors WILL eventually be the owners of our prized and coveted coins when we Pass on.
Empowering them with our combined knowledge and expertise can only be a GOOD thing IMHO.
I totally agree with Fulvios sentiments, None of us want to live in bunkers in fear of what "might" Happen .
I for one have NEVER lived in fear of what "Might" happen and I am not about to start living that way now.

This entire thing has blown up way out of proportion.
I suggest that we all just sit down and have a cup of tea and take a reality check, Then get back to what we do best.
Collect Coins and discuss and debate COINS :ok:

[Robster]

:agreed:

[keldaw]

I see it as I read it ,
 what I believe what A J  was on about is not having a young person on the forum , that is good , it was about people finding out that young,s person private address , and I agree with him about that ,
why do we need it , only when we want to send him some coins to get him started we need it and it is up to him weather he gives it to us or not . as for being robbed , we are all open to that , age has nothing to do with it , we take care so I think he does too , maybe still lives with his mum and dad anyway at 14 yoa ,.. if you wanted to take a child why would you look on a coin forum , why not a shop or a school  , .. it is very easy to get an address , so I don't think a coin forum has any worry ,..  my view only ..    ,, kel ,,

[triplewitch]

The problem with 'it is up to him whether he gives it to us or not' is that he's not old enough to make that decision on his own.  There's no indication his parents would approve or know of his giving out his address.  How often do we see that leading to tragedy?  I'm sure we think we're all nice people, but we don't know who's lurking here or what messages are sent between members.

[robbiegal]

I agree with many of the points

I note that Fulvio says up there that he knows Coopers dad
did we know that? did we know that was a gate-keeper (in the real life world) here for us with a lad who posted several times that he is ónly 14 years old', which by legal terms is a minor (i.e. under 16 years of age). As Steve would knows the grey area from 16 to 18 yrs often requires case by case  interpretation.  

My other comment is that in real life social clubs with real life people
it is a completely different social environment to an internet based environment where identities are created in a second and disappear even faster.

No one can ever 100% protect another person but as responsible adults and as Steve commented, many of us are in professional roles, and we do a social duty to ensure the younger members have assurance that when they are here, they are free to be themselves and be afforded some security regarding the distribution of information that can directly lead to personal identification.

If other members here really can't see the importance of that then I definitely stand alone and I add, without regret.

[Fulvio]

This entire thing has blown up way out of proportion.

Absolutely. But as I told a few people in PM's, this is ultimately a good thing, because its forced us to think about these issues. The sad reality is there are people out there gunning for you every day, in every way. Some are crims wanting to hurt you or separate you from your possessions, while some are wanting to protect you from their imagined threats, including protecting you from yourself. And there you are caught in the middle. So being aware of these forces is always a good thing. Not blabbing about your diamonds and gold bar collection at the pub may seem obvious, but there are many less obvious threats that only the paranoid would think of.

Yes, there are extra threats to the young. There have been since the dawn of time of course, but now that we're hyper-aware of them, its easy to overdo the knee-jerking. But lets not forget why we're ALL here. To learn and share and talk about COINS (well, and those paper or plastic coin substitutes too I guess...:angel:). I wish I'd learnt what I know now when I was a kid. I'd have made an absolute killing cornering the silver market, for one thing. But forums didn't exist, and nobody I knew was into coins, so I blissfully threw away treasures I'd kill for today. And chances are, so did you.

I have no doubt this whole youth participation thing will get sussed out, and we'll all be better off in the end. Bans don't work, you need look no further than facebook to see that. And rules generally create more problems than they solve. But perhaps it might be possible to ask an applicant's age, and display some friendly advice depending on the answer. Not to keep them out, but to make them aware of the potential risks to themselves and their treasures.

I note that Fulvio says up there that he knows Coopers dad

Umm, nope, that's not what I said. I said I'll be chatting to him. Doesn't mean I have already. :angel:

[Steveqld]

This entire thing has blown up way out of proportion.

I wish I'd learnt what I know now when I was a kid. I'd have made an absolute killing cornering the silver market, for one thing. But forums didn't exist, and nobody I knew was into coins, so I blissfully threw away treasures I'd kill for today. And chances are, so did you.

Yes.  Back in 1972 I was at school and the father was a taxi driver.  I now think of all those times I went to the bank to collect rolls of brand new 1972 5 cent coins for him that he then tore open and handed out as change to ungrateful passengers.

Why didn't I know about noodling then?  Alternatively, he did keep hundreds of 1966 50 cent coins that he sold for, I think, about $20 each back in the 80's.  Even now that's nearly twice what he could get.  Ended up being a wise decision.

Not to keep them out, but to make them aware of the potential risks to themselves and their treasures.

Agree 100%.  Ideally it's the minor's parents who should be providing the supervision.  Otherwise it's about reminding the minor that they do not personally know the people they're talking to and telling them who to contact if they've got any problems.

The issue only becomes a problem when the online contact progresses to a personal relationship.

[Fulvio]

Ended up being a wise decision.

Yeah, funny how things sometimes work out. Dad hated the round 50¢ because they were too easy to mix up in a hurry, and because our old wooden till drawer didn't have a tray for them. So he tossed them in a huge tin he kept in the darkroom.

One fine day when the silver price went ballistic, he gave himself a hernia carting them off to sell for about $19 I think. Pretty lucky move, given that a few years ago I bought a heap of UNC ones for $3 each.

If only he'd sold the kilo bar I gave him for his birthday one year. But no, he claimed sentimental value. Could have turned it into five kilos if he'd listened.

[markn]

If other members here really can't see the importance of that then I definitely stand alone and I add, without regret.

I see the importance of it, I am just not sure what any of us can do.

[Unicorn]

I agree on the importance too, but also on Marks point.

I'm sure if there is anything happening that should not be happening it will get raised and dealt with pretty quick.