1981 three and a half claw 20

[Pedro]

How rare are the Canadian 4 claws - any rough idea?

Pedro

[Fulvio]

How rare are the Canadian 4 claws - any rough idea?

Not rare at all.

1981:  65,503,000
1981:  50,000,000, Wales
1981:  50,000,000, Canada v-3.5 Claw

The vast majority of those 50m are normal.

[runway]

There was a great article in CAB mag a few years ago

[Pedro]

No surprises - the five 3 1/2 claws I can lay my hands on readily all had the shortened line beside the 2.

Pedro

[interest]

It is far too common to just be one die,

If you look at the fact that the RCM minted 50,000,000 coins they would have needed between 50 & 200 working dies, ( a die will produce on average of  250,000 coins, sure some produce up near 1,000,000) but lets say 250,000 for arguments sake.

The RM also minted 50,000,000 coins, another 50 to 200 working dies,
Oh & the RAM produced 165,503,000 there would be another
165 to 662 more dies.

WOW that adds up to be between  265 & 1062 working dies.

But the average number would be 664 dies, (if my maths are correct, & it is late at night)

So there is no way that the RAM would have produced that many dies,
they would have sent a Master Die, (positive tool) or (HUB)  from which the negative dies are made.


Don't know about the four claws, except to say that there are
two variations, the RAM & the RM
& they are often sold as 3.5 claws to unsuspecting people.

[autocoupler]

C'mon people please check your 1981 3 1/2 claws the more the better

Some years ago I acquired eight examples, noted some info on the 2x2's and consigned them to the darkness, obviously without too much sinking in. Just dug them out. Six are noted as type 1e, these are clearly 3 1/2 claws and display the same weak line to the left of the 2. Of the other two coins, both in UNC, one is noted as being type 1d (i) rev. with dot over R of AUSTRALIA, the other is a type 1d (ii) with reverse die chip. Both of these appear to be claytons 3 1/2 claws i.e. it depends on the angle of light refraction whether or not you see a half claw or a full claw. The thing is though, both display what appears to be the same weak line to the left of the 2. I only had two four claw coins to compare with, one of which is UNC, and both display a distinct fuller / heavier line.

[Fulvio]

It is far too common to just be one die

:agreed:

While I don't keep stats like Goldy, I do keep every 3-1/2 claw I find. Its a lot of coins, maybe 5-10% of the '81's I've seen, though rapidly declining.

For sure there's more than one die involved. And clearly more than one hob. Hence my question about whether the other differences are on 4-claws.

If I were going to speculate, I would say that the short claw was a deliberate mintmark. But something went wrong somewhere, and another hob(s) was used by the RCM, producing the variations in their coins. What I find odd however is that there is no similar mintmark for the RM coins, which are identical to the RAM coins.

And I also wonder about the shape of the canadian coins. Is it all down to the planchets being identifiably different, or is it also die variation? And if it is the dies, why are the RCM 4-claws distinguishable from the RAM/RM coins?

And while we're at it, why are we still debating this three decades later? Surely it should have been analysed to death by now?

[interest]

It is far too common to just be one die

And while we're at it, why are we still debating this three decades later? Surely it should have been analysed to death by now?

Tell you why, it's because I seem to have found something on a coin that has been missed for over thirty years, even after the coin has been debated about for three decades, & analysed to death.
No coin expert, like your good self have found.

I felt a bit chuffed about it that's why.

But I'll stop now.
Thanks to all that sent me photo's of their coins & comments, appreciate that.

[Fulvio]

I felt a bit chuffed about it that's why.

But I'll stop now.

Nonono.. you misunderstand me. Its not that you brought it up, or that the discussion continues. I think its remarkable that you noticed something everyone else overlooked for all those years, and you should feel very chuffed.

Rather its that I would expect that by now all the details of what happened when and where would be known, and probably the who and why as well. We certainly know in excruciating detail about other coins of arguably less import than these.

Yet I've seen no explanation for the Canadian coins being concave. I've seen people who thought all 50m were 3-1/2 claws. I've seen no analysis of why the metal looks different. And so on and so forth.

Surely the answers MUST be out there somewhere already?

[runway]

As these coins were minted in Canada, they were transported in bulk to Australia.  The RAM only rolled coins they minted, so the Canadian coins were rolled by the Reserve Bank.  For this reason you will not find a 3 1/2 claw in any RAM roll.  It may be that some of the other commercial banks rolled these coins - I have seen Perth 1981 2c coins in ANZ rolls rather than Reserve Bank wrappers.  However, I have not seen any of 1981 20c Canadian coins in these wrappers.  The 1981 20c was also minted in Wales, so these coins would also be found in Reserve Bank rolls.  So it shouldn't be assumed that Reserve Bank wrapper necessarily means Canadian coins.  1981 can get quite complicated!

Absolutely ... and a great informative post

[serial]

sorry to revive an old thread but how much is one of these worth in mint state condition?
I have been offered several from a roll and have no idea on value. I also note that pcgs don't seem to recognised this variety, why is that?

[WavyTwenty]

I have just checked and I have PCGS graded coin of MS63.

I brought it Raw in June 2006 for $63 that I thought was fair at the time.  I got it slabbed a while back.

And yes Serial - when I got this slabbed PCGS did not recognise it as a variety.  I'm hoping that they will in the future and I can send it back.

I hope the quality of these pictures is OK - I don't take photos of them often.

'81 3.5 claw MS63


'81 Uncirculated


'81 3.5 claw *Proof*

[serial]

unfortunately I missed out, he had another offer of $45 each and he had 17 of them from a mint roll but I wasn't confident spending that much when I don't know the value. well maybe next time

[interest]

I see the 3.5 claw that Downies have on their examples of 20cent varieties also has the shortened part of the body
downies 3.5
Makes me even more convinced.

[Nevol]

Hmmmm...Re the piccies of the 3½ claws, one has the ½ Claw on the left, the other on the right. Surely one of them is not a real 3½ Claw, but just due to a filled die.  I suspect it might be the 1st one, but I could be wrong.

OK, I just looked at the Downies Brochure and IF they've got it right, the ring-in is the Proof one shown above.