5th Variety of 1931 Penny discovered

[Basil]

Yuri,one final question to keep a friend of mine happy,where does John Spence,"the Penny Man", from Lismore fit in to all this. I'm told he knows you but we were wondering if he is related,or friends with, Fred Coote as apparently John had one of these Pennies for sale last year, i didn't see listed anywhere but a fellow collector said he was selling one.

Also where did John get the "minted in India" 'fact' from.?

Whether any of these "Unicorns" are proved to be genuine or not i've never seen such BS & just plain crap written about any Coin in my years of collecting.

[Yurist]

Basil, it's probably not your final question, but I'm more than happy to answer it.  I originally heard of the Penny Man from eBay.  I've not met him nor have I heard of any connection between him and Fred Coote.  Fred Lever sent me an email a little while ago about John Spence claiming to have found another Unicorn Penny, and that he was referencing my name in an ad to sell the coin.  I took a look at the ad and noted that it only referred to my article in the JNAA, which is in the public domain.  So, no legal lines were crossed.  

Much of the BS that was written about the Unicorn Penny was motivated by healthy (and perhaps a little unhealthy) scepticism.  But everyone is entitled to express their opinion and I started this thread to hear what people had to say.  I found the feedback challenging and provocative, but sometimes that's what a researcher like myself needs in order to test their findings.  Overall, it's been a rewarding experience and I take this opportunity to thank everyone for their contributions.

[JeffH]

I have been enjoying this thread. A good, robust debate.

[serenitystan]

Yuri,one final question to keep a friend of mine happy,where does John Spence,"the Penny Man", from Lismore fit in to all this. I'm told he knows you but we were wondering if he is related,or friends with, Fred Coote as apparently John had one of these Pennies for sale last year, i didn't see listed anywhere but a fellow collector said he was selling one.

Also where did John get the "minted in India" 'fact' from.?

Whether any of these "Unicorns" are proved to be genuine or not i've never seen such BS & just plain crap written about any Coin in my years of collecting.

"Hey Basil... :i_agree: . You cannot converse with a Delusional Narcissist. Me I'm going fishing... :yahoo:

[Basil]

A bit tough SS,that's how people react when their beliefs are under attack,he does write some silly statements but for the most part his posts are reasonable.

I agree with Jeff,interesting Thread and reasonably robust as far as Forums go.

Anyway nothing more i can say or do,up to people above my Pay grade to verify these Coins.
PCGS is the obvious but they have problems of their own.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an-examination-of-the-counterfeit-slab-epidemic-scope-and-advice.355364/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cointalk+%28CoinTalk+Update%29

[nealeffendi]

A bit tough SS,that's how people react when their beliefs are under attack,he does write some silly statements but for the most part his posts are reasonable.

I agree with Jeff,interesting Thread and reasonably robust as far as Forums go.

Anyway nothing more i can say or do,up to people above my Pay grade to verify these Coins.
PCGS is the obvious but they have problems of their own.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an-examination-of-the-counterfeit-slab-epidemic-scope-and-advice.355364/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cointalk+%28CoinTalk+Update%29

I also agree, Yuri doesn't deserve nasty comments. Of course we have to be thorough in our criticisms and Ill do that to friend and foe alike (you should see how much I red line Freds papers when I fact check them :blackeye:   ).

Just like a new/controversial scientific discovery the proponent has to defend his thesis and Yuri has made a respectful attempt at; but there are still too many problems that exist (the wear, image resolution, independent XRF and x-ray analysis).
I would also agree that PCGS isn't the mob to verify this variety. If they were I wouldn't have a whole lot of slabbed fakes, wrong mint mark identification, wrong variety attributes and wrong country slabs in my collection.

[fred lever]

Well, here we are a couple of years down the track on this interesting subject.
I am primarily interested in linking the progression of Master and working die appearances in pennies between 1922 and 1931 where a derivative of an early CBL die may have made it to 1931.
I have asked a question that concentrates on the nut of the subject and received negative responses.

Has anybody in the last couple of years seen or held any 1931 dated penny with Curved Base Letters on the reverse?
(I do note the appearance of one as recorded in a rural newspaper)

After all the preceding hoopla I would have thought that more CBL 1931 of any die pairings should have turned up at club or auction level.
Just as rarities like the 1920 Penny  dot over bottom scroll English Obverse  or 1916 halfpenny Indian Obverse  finally surfaced once the first was known about.
Those rarities were viewed by many, and some went through public auction with appropriate scrutiny.

In research I have only held or seen 100's of 1931, other researchers have viewed 1000's of 1931, over the years, but no 1931 date CBL to be seen.

Anyone?

Fred.

[serenitystan]

Hi Fred, There's a 1931 penny on Ebay, item number- 185695597167.

[JeffH]

"Slightly Cleaned"!

[fred lever]

Thanks Stan and Jeff. That was a beautiful coin once.
Looks like it has been through a fire.
Yep its UNC check out the features, but.................should be described as damaged.
Anyhoo, its a free country and if I want it I'll buy it, or not.
The reverse letters are very sharp and dainty just like a unc strike with no flattening from wear.
Are they CBL, well just like all the other interesting 1931's in auctions we see a blurry photo of the reverse and that puts me right off!
Thanks, Fred.

[fred lever]

AFS coins were kind enough to re photo the coin for the site ad.
The new photo was good enough after a photoshop to see it is a FBL reverse.
I have no interest in it.
The coin indeed is a sharp strike with little wear and from that point of view is about UNC strike state.
The damage you can see indicates the coin needs a lot of work to conserve it.
Not sure what grade it would get as it is (Fine?)  would have to see it in the hand but it looks like it has had an unhappy time.
Reminds me of coins that have been through a fire and discoloured.
Shame.
Fred.

[serenitystan]

Opinions please, Australian penny 1941m PCGS 64rb..Verification no 24159181 recently sold for $1200.00??  Numismatic bid auctions, Could this coin be a 41y with die filled dot??

[nealeffendi]

Stan, it is hard to tell. Maybe the only way to be sure it is a filled die would be to match it to another coin from that die pair from an earlier pre fill strike. Not much in the way of die markers to make the job easy; no cracks or blobs. about the only die marker is the doubling of GEORGE.
Even if genuine is it worth $1200? Population of 15 with 2 higher doesn't warrant such a high price does it? Plus is it overgraded as it has lots of contact marks, a couple of green spots and not the eye appeal of other roo pennies in that grade.

[autocoupler]

The reverse looks like a Perth strike, not what would be expected from the Melbourne Mint in my opinion.

[serenitystan]

Thank you Neal + Auto for your professional opinions. it's just that $1200 bucks for a 41m in 64 RB is crazy unless someone placed a$1200 pre-bid or bidders believed it to be a 41Y as there is what looks like a dot after the Y. I don't think PCGS would go to the time+expense to look at die markers on a weakly struck  41 penny to determine if it's a Perth strike.